God save me from changes!!!! (1 Viewer)

screaming piha · Mar 7, 2007

overworkedirish said:
For people who get so worked up about birds being called what they're not, you guys were pretty quick to call our Black Vulture a stork.

That would be me, then... Worked up? No. Enjoying a tease about the White-winged Pseudostork? Guilty. If your link's proposal is accepted widely a name change to White-winged Pseudoraptor is perfectly acceptable to me.

dantheman · Mar 7, 2007

overworkedirish said:
EDIT: I probably shouldn't have gotten involved in this thread - I just don't see what the big deal is with names. 'long-spur', 'bun-ting' - 2 syllables each. 'black', 'monk' - 1 syllable each. Who cares?

Not worked up, just aggrieved, outraged and morbidly upset

And it isn't anything against the American names of birds, it's across the board. (Coots, Cisticolas, Northern or European everything. . .) When in Rome call a Diver a Loon, fine . . It's that we've been calling these birds a certain name since the year dot (give or take a little). I'm sure the same sentiments would occur if folks in the US were told they had to start calling the American Robin the American Thrush, for example, or your Goldfinches had to be found an alternative name, as 'goldfinches' is already in use elsewhere. The names that have been used are part of the heritage, literature even, and their individuality, quirkyness even should be allowable, as we have the linnean scientific wording to fall back upon if we want to be exact and scientific about things. ..

Gentoo · Mar 7, 2007

dantheman said:
Because in the Emberizidae (in this, the main part of the WP) we have lots of Emberiza, all called Buntings, a Plectrophenax (P. nivalis), which is also a bunting (Snow Bunting), then a single Calcarius, (C. lapponicus, Lapland Longspur??), and then lots more emberiza, Buntings again!!!

i.e. they are all Buntings save for one in the middle we now have to call a Longspur!!!

Just seems wrong! (Although of course I'll call them longspurs if I get to see them in North America ever!!)

...but the Longspurs, there are four species, are distinct from the other buntings and sparrows.

Gentoo · Mar 7, 2007

overworkedirish said:
I don't know why people are getting bent outta shape - the birds are the birds - the names don't change that. None of us snicker at boobies or tits because they got stuck with suggestive names (well, okay, maybe some of us do... but it's all in good fun! Nobody holds it against the birds).

P.S. There've been updated studies on New World Vultures that link them away from Ciconiiformes... http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop241.html

For people who get so worked up about birds being called what they're not, you guys were pretty quick to call our Black Vulture a stork.

..and I prefer the name Oldsquaw over Long Tailed Duck, none the less that's the name the AUO has now adopted so it goes both ways too.

Gentoo · Mar 7, 2007

it's across the board. (Coots, Cisticolas, Northern or European everything.

A lot of people who may be just average birders, don't learn scientific names. By attaching a prefix type name, it indicates that there's more than one species with that English name. For example, Killdeer is simply Killdeer, there's only one. However Coot in a European Book and Coot in an American boook can be misleading. Remember most people aren't as detailed at learning the taxonomic relationship of birds. They just want to knw what the bird is called, therefore, adding identifyng words to the names in a way makes learning them easier.

AlexC · Mar 7, 2007

Gentoo said:
...However Coot in a European Book and Coot in an American boook can be misleading. Remember most people aren't as detailed at learning the taxonomic relationship of birds. They just want to knw what the bird is called, therefore, adding identifyng words to the names in a way makes learning them easier.

This is one piece of beef I've always had with European nicknames... "wren," "blackbird," "coot," "robin," the list goes on. Specificity needs to be attained. Here in the US non-birders know "robins," "crows," "seagulls," but it's up to us birders to refer to them as "American Robins, "American/Fish Crows," and "___ Gulls."

dantheman · Mar 7, 2007

A lot of people who may be just average birders, don't learn scientific names. By attaching a prefix type name, it indicates that there's more than one species with that English name. . .

and

This is one piece of beef I've always had with European nicknames... "wren," "blackbird," "coot," "robin," the list goes on. Specificity needs to be attained. . .

True, but you usually only refer to that species within that country until you come here on birdforum or similar that is. You see a coot on a reservoir in the uk and its a Coot!- nothing else it can be (excepting the very very rare Fulica americana once in a blue moon!) And there's only one Wren over here, one Robin, and that's been the name they were called. Not really that confusing. I think most people won't worry about the fact that there are others in the family. If they get to travel/ bird abroad, they have the general intelligence to differentiate if they need to.

Like I'm getting used to people from your side referring to blackbirds, I first think of our 'Blackbird Thrush', but from the context I soon can tell what is meant.

People learn to differentiate a Coot from a Moorhen, surely having to learn European Coot is more difficult. Conversely, it annoys me a little to hear people say Heron as a species, it's a Grey Heron!! (we have just the one regularly in the uk) Grey adds something to the name. Northern (or European) doesn't.

On the other hand, most people are now used to/ resigned to the Northern/European conundrum, that wasn't really the issue on this thread. It was the sometimes seemingly arbitrary way names have changed that annoys.

(and used to doesn't mean every time I'm in the field I tell everyone I'm seeing European Starling and Northern Fulmars everywhere from now on. . .)

I think that's quite enough of me wittering on for a while. . .

Gentoo · Mar 7, 2007

dantheman said:
and

True, but you usually only refer to that species within that country until you come here on birdforum or similar that is. You see a coot on a reservoir in the uk and its a Coot!- nothing else it can be (excepting the very very rare Fulica americana once in a blue moon!) And there's only one Wren over here, one Robin, and that's been the name they were called. Not really that confusing. I think most people won't worry about the fact that there are others in the family. If they get to travel/ bird abroad, they have the general intelligence to differentiate if they need to.

Like I'm getting used to people from your side referring to blackbirds, I first think of our 'Blackbird Thrush', but from the context I soon can tell what is meant.

People learn to differentiate a Coot from a Moorhen, surely having to learn European Coot is more difficult. Conversely, it annoys me a little to hear people say Heron as a species, it's a Grey Heron!! (we have just the one regularly in the uk) Grey adds something to the name. Northern (or European) doesn't.

On the other hand, most people are now used to/ resigned to the Northern/European conundrum, that wasn't really the issue on this thread. It was the sometimes seemingly arbitrary way names have changed that annoys.

(and used to doesn't mean every time I'm in the field I tell everyone I'm seeing European Starling and Northern Fulmars everywhere from now on. . .)

I think that's quite enough of me wittering on for a while. . .

On this note, in America we only have one species of Pintail but it's still called the Northern Pintail. What Northern adds to the name is the fact that it is found across the northern hemisphere. European means its not the American or African one.

I do see your point too however. In normal conversation we often say "coot", "Pintail", "Starling" etc. It is not how we list them in the books or checklist however.

Xenospiza · Mar 7, 2007

Gentoo said:
...but the Longspurs, there are four species, are distinct from the other buntings and sparrows.

Which is why Longspur is an excellent name. America has four, Europe shares one – I think we should follow.
Snow & McKay's Bunting are closely related to them... but calling these Longspurs would only confuse people worldwide!

Black Wheatear · Mar 7, 2007

Didn’t mean for this thread to end up as a ping pong match between our brethrens across the pond. Look, for me it is very simple, whenever I have visited North America I have used field guides written for that country and never complained about using the names adopted by that continent. I am sure the same is true in reverse for those coming to Europe etc. For many on both sides, we had become accustomed to our own names and many changes to the English names have now created confusion. Of course, the standardizing of English names was meant to reduce confusion, but as can be seen here it has done anything but!!

The organizations responsible for the changes are, by and large, self-appointed and their arbitrary changes (English names) quite unnecessary in many cases. Take a look at the botanical side of nomenclature and you will see now so many variables, that many species lists have now reverted to alphabetical orders, as opposed to scientific order, and are usually qualified by giving species names according to some obscure ‘latest’ definition.

Larry Sweetland · Mar 7, 2007

So it seems many of us are irritated on occasion by a new, or alternative, or shortened name used. Dan has mentioned that normally common sense quickly tells us what species is being discussed. I wonder though if anyone can think of an example of being genuinely duped into thinking a different species is being mentioned. Has anyone run down a track to look at something rare, only to discover that it is a common species that they would call by a differnt name? Or missed out on something for a similar reason? I can't think of any personal examples.

Colin Key · Mar 7, 2007

Black Wheatear said:
Didn’t mean for this thread to end up as a ping pong match between our brethrens across the pond. Look, for me it is very simple, whenever I have visited North America I have used field guides written for that country and never complained about using the names adopted by that continent. I am sure the same is true in reverse for those coming to Europe etc. For many on both sides, we had become accustomed to our own names and many changes to the English names have now created confusion. Of course, the standardizing of English names was meant to reduce confusion, but as can be seen here it has done anything but!!

The organizations responsible for the changes are, by and large, self-appointed and their arbitrary changes (English names) quite unnecessary in many cases. Take a look at the botanical side of nomenclature and you will see now so many variables, that many species lists have now reverted to alphabetical orders, as opposed to scientific order, and are usually qualified by giving species names according to some obscure ‘latest’ definition.

Well said Peter - "do in Rome.....etc". I think it is futile to attempt to rationalize nomenclature across the Atlantic for "biological" reasons. The Latin names exist for taxonomic purposes, and will not change (except when DNA evidence uncovers "errors"), so why not just leave our traditional common names intact. In my lifetime Hedge Sparrow (I know it isn't a sparrow, but I quite liked the name) has been changed to Dunnock and then Hedge Accentor. And why on earth was Black-shouldered Kite changed to Black-winged Kite? I know that kites (or any bird) don't have "shoulders", but this species doesn´t have black wings either!

Living in Portugal and being associated with SPEA and the Portuguese Rarities Committee I have to contend with English, Portuguese (a real mess) and Latin names. Because Portuguese is a Latin-based language quite a lot of Portuguese birders tend to use the Latin names rather then the common names, and I am moving in that direction myself.

The people I feel very sorry for are the "average birdwatchers" (the large pool of enthusiasts who we want to draw closer into this hobby); nomenclature is difficult enough and these periodic changes to common names by the self-appointed powers that be just puts them off.

This is quite an interesting thread and I hope it continues without anyone getting "vexed".

Colin
:t:

Barred Wobbler · Mar 7, 2007

Colin Key said:
Well said Peter - "do in Rome.....etc". I think it is futile to attempt to rationalize nomenclature across the Atlantic for "biological" reasons. The Latin names exist for taxonomic purposes, and will not change (except when DNA evidence uncovers "errors"), so why not just leave our traditional common names intact. In my lifetime Hedge Sparrow (I know it isn't a sparrow, but I quite liked the name) has been changed to Dunnock and then Hedge Accentor. And why on earth was Black-shouldered Kite changed to Black-winged Kite? I know that kites (or any bird) don't have "shoulders", but this species doesn´t have black wings either!
Living in Portugal and being associated with SPEA and the Portuguese Rarities Committee I have to contend with English, Portuguese (a real mess) and Latin names. Because Portuguese is a Latin-based language quite a lot of Portuguese birders tend to use the Latin names rather then the common names, and I am moving in that direction myself.

The people I feel very sorry for are the "average birdwatchers" (the large pool of enthusiasts who we want to draw closer into this hobby); nomenclature is difficult enough and these periodic changes to common names by the self-appointed powers that be just puts them off.

This is quite an interesting thread and I hope it continues without anyone getting "vexed".

Colin
:t:

This very topic came up just last week when I was talking to a Swedish couple on the on the marshes at Algaida. Trying to be oh-so correct I called the bird "Black-winged kite" (although I prefer the old name). After a few seconds of looking confused the Swedish birder replied "Oh, I thought it was black-shouldered kite". I said it had been but "they" had been messing about and changed it. "Ah" he said "I see".

So much for the new names improving understanding.

Xenospiza · Mar 7, 2007

jdj said:
The worst name change for me is Black Vulture to Monk Vulture.

I think Monk Vulture (a literal translation of its scientific, Dutch, French, Italian and German name) is fine: they look like Capuchin monks – brown dress, bold head! It's a lot better than the other alternative Cinereous Vulture (ash-coloured? not really) or Eurasian Black Vulture. Since the bird isn't really a daily occurence in the UK, I don't think it would hurt to change the English name.

Colin Key · Mar 7, 2007

Xenospiza said:
I think Monk Vulture (a literal translation of its scientific, Dutch, French, Italian and German name) is fine: they look like Capuchin monks – brown dress, bold head! It's a lot better than the other alternative Cinereous Vulture (ash-coloured? not really) or Eurasian Black Vulture. Since the bird isn't really a daily occurence in the UK, I don't think it would hurt to change the English name.

Well, I don't agree. I see a few Aegypius monachus every year, most frequently during the autumn raptor migration when they seem to just tag along with the thousands of other raptors "just for the ride". They are (to me) very special birds, and quite impressive with those huge, square wings. The Portuguese name is "Abutre-preto", literally meaning Black Vulture. When all "the lads" are assembled at the watch point at Cabranoso near Cabo Sao Vicente for the raptor count in September - October the appearance of either a Golden Eagle or a Black Vulture is something a bit special and the name of the species is yelled out as loud as possible. I have never heard anyone shout "Monk Vulture" or "Abutre-monge" (translated into Portuguese), it simply doesn't sound quite right - know what I mean?

Colin

Dawsy · Mar 7, 2007

jdj said:
That would be me, then... Worked up? No. Enjoying a tease about the White-winged Pseudostork? Guilty. If your link's proposal is accepted widely a name change to White-winged Pseudoraptor is perfectly acceptable to me.

As there seems to be an air of pedantry in this thread anyway I'll suggest white-handed pseudoraptor (I definitely like pseudoraptor) to avoid confusion with the turkey pseudoraptor.

Michael

screaming piha · Mar 7, 2007

Dawsy said:
As there seems to be an air of pedantry in this thread anyway I'll suggest white-handed pseudoraptor (I definitely like pseudoraptor) to avoid confusion with the turkey pseudoraptor.

Michael

I'm happy with that one if you can accept gobbling pseudoraptor (it is the call that inspired the English name, isn't it?).

Edit: perhaps we should transfer to ruffled feathers...

Xenospiza · Mar 7, 2007

Colin Key said:
Well, I don't agree.

I'm not too seriously bothered about all this, but please leave it here!
The Portuguese (well Brasilians) have a different word for American vultures, so they can keep their name!
If you use a new name regularly (especially shouting it loudly – for good reasons – I mean I still remember this one: http://www.birdclubkatwijk.nl/bck/galleries/galleriesdetails.asp?id=45 (that looks quite black sir...)), you'll get used to it after a few years... although of course there are exceptions.
In Dutch European Turtle-Dove was renamed 15 years ago when Lars Jonsson's guide was translated into Dutch. People got used to this name within a few years, despite it being quite different, because "everyone" bought the guide and it seemed like a logical change.
Some other changes (like getting rid of the diminutives that make names sound "nicer" in Dutch) were fiercely opposed, and some were (luckily) withdrawn when the Collins' guide appeared – some others I still use privately/in the field.

Black Wheatear · Mar 7, 2007

Colin Key said:
Well, I don't agree. I see a few Aegypius monachus every year, most frequently during the autumn raptor migration when they seem to just tag along with the thousands of other raptors "just for the ride". They are (to me) very special birds, and quite impressive with those huge, square wings. The Portuguese name is "Abutre-preto", literally meaning Black Vulture. When all "the lads" are assembled at the watch point at Cabranoso near Cabo Sao Vicente for the raptor count in September - October the appearance of either a Golden Eagle or a Black Vulture is something a bit special and the name of the species is yelled out as loud as possible. I have never heard anyone shout "Monk Vulture" or "Abutre-monge" (translated into Portuguese), it simply doesn't sound quite right - know what I mean?

Colin

Very much the same here Colin, Buitre Negro, which of course directly translates as Black Vulture. Seems like we are the unfortunate victims of being Brits and English speaking (well sort of)!!

AlexC · Mar 7, 2007

Colin Key said:
...The Portuguese name is "Abutre-preto", literally meaning Black Vulture. When all "the lads" are assembled at the watch point at Cabranoso near Cabo Sao Vicente for the raptor count in September - October the appearance of either a Golden Eagle or a Black Vulture is something a bit special and the name of the species is yelled out as loud as possible. I have never heard anyone shout "Monk Vulture" or "Abutre-monge" (translated into Portuguese), it simply doesn't sound quite right - know what I mean?

Colin

...but I thought you said that many Portuguese use the Latin names... which means Monk Vulture anyway!

And as Xenospiza said, we're not talking about changing the Portuguese names - especially if (and I'll take Xenospiza's word for it) there's a different word in Portuguese for New World Vultures altogether.

Michael - maybe White-fingered Pseudoraptor, eh?

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