Have I been fooled by this Kestrel, Portugal? (1 Viewer)

rosbifs · Oct 23, 2020

So I saw two Kestrels sat together. When I stopped I only had a view through the corner of the windscreen. However, the male didn't have a moustache and the female was very orange brown in the colour.

immediately I thought Lesser Kestrel and tried to grab a photo as they flew in opposite directions. The male landed on a post...

c. 1hour later I refound a male on the same post. But this seems to have a faint moustache...

Are both or neither Lesser Kestrel?

rosbifs · Oct 23, 2020

So this is the last of the first kestrel..

rosbifs · Oct 23, 2020

And this is either the same or a different bird...

KC Foggin · Oct 23, 2020

Any way you can upload larger images?

rosbifs · Oct 23, 2020

I'm struggling because I have to connect to wifi to my phone and then airdrop to the computer....

Will see if there is another way.

rosbifs · Oct 23, 2020

Maybe this

I can crop on the camera and then export...

rosbifs · Oct 23, 2020

And the first bird... It's sort of working...

rosbifs · Oct 23, 2020

Should add that the photos were today - which would make it very late...

Deb Burhinus · Oct 23, 2020

Not sure how many individuals you are posting here but the male in post #3 is a Common imo - distinct moustache, pale cheek and comparatively heavy streaking rather than small spots point to Common Kestrel. Isn’t getting quite late for Lesser Kestrel in Portugal? They tend to move Westward post-breeding before migrating. (Maybe revise that statement - some tagging studies https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/192555025.pdf suggest this is the case with juveniles whereas adults seem to remain near breeding sites - do some of the birds at Castro Verde winter over? - no doubt RM is the best person to throw further light on movements of LK in Portugal)

rosbifs · Oct 23, 2020

Ok

So I think I have been duped unless someone wants a stab... I was convinced that I couldn't see a moustache in the first maleand then the deep ochre colour - which is evident.

That said it would be crazy to think there were two birds with this colouring (three if you count the female) so they have to be the same??!?

Deb Burhinus · Oct 23, 2020

FWIW, On this resolution and on the smaller size images, it’s hard to make out detail, but your last image also looks better for a Common male imo - I would expect to see some light grey coverts if a Lesser, a better resolution might reveal those darker spots on the wings are dark centered feathers,( the claws look like they may be dark too?).

RafaelMatias · Oct 23, 2020

I'm with Deb. I think there's a very scary level of photo artifacts in these photos and a lot of artificial smoothing going on. The tail looks all grey (adult, no 1st summer here), so as mentioned above I'd expect to see grey on the wings, no spots on the underparts.

rosbifs · Oct 23, 2020

I almost posted on ebird! Thank goodness for even rubbish photos...

Had some great birds mind - Bonellis Eagle, another Short Eared Owl, 2 maybe three British Pied Wagtails, some strange escaped cage birds - Red Billed Avadavat and some Yellow Crowned Bishops...

RafaelMatias · Oct 23, 2020

The Bonelli's Eagle is always nice, there's a pair just north of the Cabo Raso (Peninha area: this is also good for Alpine Accentor, Ring Ouzel and Snow Bunting was once regular there). Cabo da Roca, also just north of Cabo Raso, but a much higher cape, can also be good for Alpine Accentor, Wallcreeper has been seen there more than once and Magnus Robb found a Little Bunting there some years ago; I also found a Snow Finch there about 2 decades ago (but I guess all these alpine birds are what you get where you live in France).
Where did you see the Red Avadavat and YCB? YCB breed in large numbers in the Tagus estuary area, they're gathering in flocks now that can contain many hundred individuals (some years ago I saw one that would have more than 1000); Red Avadavats also occur there.

tconzemi · Oct 23, 2020

#10 picture: I have never seen a Common Kestrel with greater coverts without subterminal dark and clear cut spot, even in these adult males which are hardly spotted above; also the the whole upperparts look very spotless (but this can be photoartefact). But I have seen Lesser Kestrel with no or almost no grey in greater coverts, if this is a second cal y Lesser with just a few left juvenile coverts (spotted but not the neigbouring coverts) such a bird would have new (adult- type) remiges and tail and would still be spotted below and readily show a faint moustache. Also (again could be artefact) I see claws half black half white. I'd like to know if someone of you has ever seen a Common with unspotted greater coverts (I'm genuinely interested and I don't think this is an artefact here). To my eyes this is a second calendar autumn Lesser Kestrel

RafaelMatias · Oct 23, 2020

My concern with the lack of upperparts spotting is that the spotting was removed by an auto algorithm of the kind that makes your skin look smooth and glossy. I'm not sure I'm observing a true lack of spots. Look at the rocks just next to the bird's feet, they're "melted". Wouldn't a 2nd cal bird still have some unmoulted outer tail feathers?

tconzemi · Oct 23, 2020

RafaelMatias said:
My concern with the lack of upperparts spotting is that the spotting was removed by an auto algorithm of the kind that makes your skin look smooth and glossy. I'm not sure I'm observing a true lack of spots. Look at the rocks just next to the bird's feet, they're "melted". Wouldn't a 2nd cal bird still have some unmoulted outer tail feathers?

Forsman FLIGHT IDENTIFICATION pic 915: 19.9.2011 sec cy with taill completely moulted but outer tail feathers still growing
I agree on lot of artefacts and maybe this bird should be left unidentified, still interesting discussion

dantheman · Oct 23, 2020

Will better images be possible at a later date (ie uncropped by the phone software), or is that likely to be it?

RafaelMatias · Oct 23, 2020

Or perhaps better images could be obtained of the same bird tomorrow?
Was this at Cabo Raso?

Deb Burhinus · Oct 23, 2020

tconzemi said:
Forsman FLIGHT IDENTIFICATION pic 915: 19.9.2011 sec cy with taill completely moulted but outer tail feathers still growing
I agree on lot of artefacts and maybe this bird should be left unidentified, still interesting discussion

A 2cy male could only really be identified this time of year by retained juvenile flight feathers cf to adult feathers moulted in. This would translate in October as either clearly barred tertials and barred inner coverts on a 2cy Lesser Kestrel or new grey adult feathers which have replaced them or at least a mix of both (as moult is generally suspended in late migrants). I see neither barred tertials nor grey tertials here and have never seen a Lesser Kestrel with neither one nor the other. Adult male Common Kestrel on the other hand show variable terminal spotting to the tertials and secondaries, not always very visible on perched birds as the secondaries can ‘concertina’ on a folded wing, also obvious mantle spotting is generally confined to two ‘tramlines’ running down the back with the rest of the upperparts looking more plain rufous - I think this image reflects this pattern even with such a poor resolution - I don’t think the terminal spots to the feathers are ‘missing’ but ‘pixelled’ out of the image. It seems much more likely the spots are ‘melted out’ rather than any completely barred flight feathers. The face pattern in the previous image also looks better for Adult male Common Kestrel. See plate 567 Forsman 1999 p453 this adult male shows a very sparsely spotted tertial/secondary pattern due largely to posture. (I agree about claw colour, while reliable as a diagnostic tool, in the field it can be difficult to judge - black claws reflecting light or pale claws soiled with dirt, so on an image such as these a bit of a throw away)

Have I been fooled by this Kestrel, Portugal? (1 Viewer)

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