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Kowa 883 v Swarovski ATS80 (1 Viewer)

In the long run I'd also get a really small scope as well. I'm a sort of three scopes guy nowadays. I actually feel having one alpha scope (or two, or three ... ;)) is more important than using an alpha binocular for most purposes. There are many pretty good binoculars in the mid-price range nowadays, but only very few really good scopes. Most of the bargain scopes just don't cut it.

Hermann

That's kind of where I'm at as well.
I'm more willing to plunk down for a scope than for binoculars. One benefits much more from better optics with a scope than with (handheld) binoculars. Many bins will give you a good view and enable you to ID what you're looking at. Holding these in one's hands is the major limiting factor. To see the brilliance of what you're looking at, a scope can't be beat.
 
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There was something i heard once as a piece of advice, but can't remember for the life of me when, where and who said it -
'get yourself some good binoculars, but an excellent scope'. Don't know if anyone else has heard this, or perhaps is responsible for having said it?
 
I think, in fast and furious and physically difficult birding conditions (which often obtain when seeking the most or "best" birds), the utility of superb binoculars is far above lesser bins that otherwise would suffice. Consequently, as a dedicated birder, I could never endorse the notion that a great scope is more important than great bins. That said, I also don't endorse the idea of having great bins and a crummy scope. Get the great bins because they are the most important optical tool for most birding. Spend on the great scope because if properly cared for, it will last and will not be made obsolete. Improvements in birding scopes are hard to obtain at this point, and given that atmospheric effects are often the limitation on what can be seen, further improvements will not be of much practical significance.

These days, I am using my Kowa 884 with 25-60x and 1.6x (so, effectively 40-96x) very heavily for fieldwork (digiscoping basking turtles). It performs flawlessly. Really, I have no complaints. Still, I don't feel I'm taking a step down in utility or fine optical performance when I use my ancient Nikon 78ED with 30x wide for birding. The 25-75x zoom on that scope is also super sharp and works beautifully when needed, but if using a zoom on a routine basis I prefer the Kowa zoom and scope because of its better eye relief for glasses, wider FOV, and larger aperture. If I weren't doing the turtle work, I'd probably have had no trouble continuing to resist purchasing the Kowa 884 or any another modern scope. Since I bought the 78ED in ~1996, I've had plenty of opportunity to compare it to everything else, and I could have purchased several scopes to replace it since then, but I just couldn't see (literally) much if any benefit, so the only scopes that have inspired a purchase were the 50ED (for travel; body-only new for $325) and an 82ED that I couldn't resist (as a back-up/lender) new with 25-75x mark II zoom for under $900. Scopes are cheap because one can buy one or two and then be done. I haven't found the same to be true for bins, but maybe that's because I got into birding in the mid 1980s, when bins were not optimized for birding. It's been a long time getting here, but now that we have close-focusing, compact, long eye-relief, reasonably wide-field, waterproof, optically stunning bins, maybe I could imagine that I could feel the same way about bins as I do scopes. If I were starting today, and got the Swarovski 8.5x42 EL SV and Zeiss 8x25 Victory Pocket, I might be satisfied with my bins indefinitely (which is to say until Swarovski were to give the EL variable-ratio focus. C'mon Swarovski!)

--AP
 
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Good post Alexis. I agree with most of what you wrote and also agree with your choice of optics. I have an ED82, ED50, Victory 8x25s, and tomorrow an 883 w/25-60.

About the point about binoculars v spotters and value..
I wouldn't argue about having fine binoculars as this is the birder's fundamental tool. I would argue that things like quick focus, flare control, reasonable wide field, eye relief compatibility, and general handling friendliness, are of more value than absolute optical acuity. I tend not to look through hand held binoculars for extended periods and much after an ID is made, with some exceptions.

With this way of thinking, my "ancient" (to use your word for your ED78) 8x32BNs are superb for my use. Though I have recently bought the 8x25 Victorys and MHG 8x42s, I have felt no desire to buy a $2500 super bin from Z,S, or L.
I'm just not imagining much of an improvement over what I currently have, for my use.

I started down the path of purchasing the Kowa 883 looking for a Nikon ED82A.
Haven't found one to my liking. My ED82 is the straight version and I've been wanting the angled version for some time.
So not finding what I know is an excellent scope in the old Nikon, I opted for the angled Kowa which cost about the same as those flagship bins previously mentioned and am perfectly comfortable with that.

I had no reservations plunking down for the scope whereas I wouldn't consider paying that for a pair of birding bins. The very small things that one of those super bins "might" give just don't add up to a big deal, for me.

Now my experience isn't yours or anybody else's. I'm just not comfortable doing extended study through hand held binoculars. I am with a scope.
 
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Actually, I don't think we disagree on much of anything!

...I wouldn't argue about having fine binoculars as this is the birder's fundamental tool. I would argue that things like quick focus, flare control, reasonable wide field, eye relief compatibility, and general handling friendliness, are of more value than absolute optical acuity...

Although I do use my bins (esp. when I don't have a scope with me) at their/my limits of resolution/acuity, I agree that those other qualities you listed are just as important for a birding bin. The thing is, in my experience it is only the top quality bins that do all those things well. I've not found a bin that handles really well and is field worthy but that doesn't cost much and doesn't also have superb optical quality. In fact, I think the opposite is true far more often these days (i.e. some fairly inexpensive bins have great optics but poor handling and durability).

...With this way of thinking, my "ancient" (to use your word for your ED78) 8x32BNs are superb for my use. Though I have recently bought the 8x25 Victorys and MHG 8x42s, I have felt no desire to buy a $2500 super bin from Z,S, or L. I'm just not imagining much of an improvement over what I currently have, for my use...

Ha! The 8x32 BN is one of the great bins of all time and is superb in every respect, even by modern standards, almost identical to its 8x32 Ultravid descendent, so I think you _do_ have a super bin. You just didn't have to pay today's prices. The closest thing to a current "super bin" that I have is the Swarovski 8.5x42 EL SV with traditional strap lugs (which I prefer), which I got new on considerable mark-down ($1600) when the field-pro version was released. Even so, that's the most I've ever paid for a bin. I have a good number of "alphas", but they were all less expensive in the past.

...I started down the path of purchasing the Kowa 883 looking for a Nikon ED82A. Haven't found one to my liking. My ED82 is the straight version and I've been wanting the angled version for some time. So not finding what I know is an excellent scope in the old Nikon, I opted for the angled Kowa...

Funny, I was initially interested in a new big scope for the same reason--to get an angled version. But then I got an angled ED50 for myself and had regular access to a big angled scope (Athlon Cronus) for work. After a good amount of day to day experience with both, I've decided that I don't like viewing (or rather, finding and tracking) birds through angled scopes, even after plenty of time to get used to them. I like the angled ED50 since it works better than my straight ED50 on a travel (i.e. short when stable) tripod, but only for that reason. The big angled scope works better than straight for sharing views, but otherwise I'm not a fan. So for my own work, I chose the 884 over the 883. Love it! esp. with my current project since I am often pointing it downwards (looking down to creeks from bridges). Very refreshing to be back to a straight scope.

--AP
 
I've been a Swaro fan for 3 decades...and I would agree with the OP....the Kowa just has a little better image.

I almost wish I would have never compared the two...as now I too want the Kowa.

But isn't that the way it is with good glass? I tried my buddies Swaro BTX with 95mm last year and almost skipped a heartbeat- breathtaking.

There should be a rule; don't look through it if you cannot afford it! /grin
 
I've purchased a Kowa 883 on 12 mths 0%-finance / part deposit scheme, only issue is I obviously can't try out the model I have ordered (but could send it back of course).

Thanks for all your advice. Excited.

Now to save up for a better tripod, any cheap but adequate suggestions?
 
I've purchased a Kowa 883 on 12 mths 0%-finance / part deposit scheme, only issue is I obviously can't try out the model I have ordered (but could send it back of course).

Thanks for all your advice. Excited.

Now to save up for a better tripod, any cheap but adequate suggestions?

I received my 883 today. Used it in the backyard a bit and compared it to my Nikon ED82. So far very good. At similar mag, it compares favorably with the Nikon and the MC 38x wide EP. Early opinion is that it is indistinguishable from the Nikon, and that is very good. I'll know more in a few days.

Regarding a tripod..
There are no cheap but adequate solutions I'm afraid. I don't much give tripod advice anymore, as no one listens anyway, and my tastes probably aren't as mainstream as most, but I will say you're probably into about $300 for aluminum legs and video head at the low end. $500-700. for carbon and a lighter head. This is for stuff that isn't junk, that you'll actually want to have and use down the road. Benro, Gitzo, Sirui, Manfrotto are names you'll likely be looking at. Lots of threads here on BF to review.

You're getting a great scope, don't underestimate the need for and quality of the tripod to use that scope.
 
I received my 883 today. Used it in the backyard a bit and compared it to my Nikon ED82. So far very good. At similar mag, it compares favorably with the Nikon and the MC 38x wide EP. Early opinion is that it is indistinguishable from the Nikon, and that is very good. I'll know more in a few days.

Regarding a tripod..
There are no cheap but adequate solutions I'm afraid. I don't much give tripod advice anymore, as no one listens anyway, and my tastes probably aren't as mainstream as most, but I will say you're probably into about $300 for aluminum legs and video head at the low end. $500-700. for carbon and a lighter head. This is for stuff that isn't junk, that you'll actually want to have and use down the road. Benro, Gitzo, Sirui, Manfrotto are names you'll likely be looking at. Lots of threads here on BF to review.

You're getting a great scope, don't underestimate the need for and quality of the tripod to use that scope.

I’ve never invested in a good scope or tripod to be honest, so I’m in new territory. I considered the Nikon Monarch 82ED angled too, not easy to try out in the UK. I pontificated much last night before ordering the Kowa. I could have saved £500 by opting for the Nikon.

The Kowa I got comes with the 25-60 eyepiece. I tried it with the older 20-60 eyepiece. I’m really excited about receiving it now, biggest outlay I’ve ever made for this hobby, I’ve had to fib to the wife :)-
 
I've been running the 883 on the Viking TR100 Plus tripod and the Manfrotto 500 fluid head since i bought the scope. Not a king's ransom as a set up, and no let-downs at all. Has withstood sea-watching through at least three east coast winters but light enough to cart around for a day. Not sure if the TR100 Plus is still around though - Viking's site seems to offer the TR100 (not sure how different that is, but worth a phone call) and the TR100 Pro, which is carbon fibre, and obviously quite a bit more expensive.
Again - depends what your plans are for it. The 883 actually isn't that heavy, and nowhere near the ATX95.
 
I've been running the 883 on the Viking TR100 Plus tripod and the Manfrotto 500 fluid head since i bought the scope. Not a king's ransom as a set up, and no let-downs at all. Has withstood sea-watching through at least three east coast winters but light enough to cart around for a day. Not sure if the TR100 Plus is still around though - Viking's site seems to offer the TR100 (not sure how different that is, but worth a phone call) and the TR100 Pro, which is carbon fibre, and obviously quite a bit more expensive.
Again - depends what your plans are for it. The 883 actually isn't that heavy, and nowhere near the ATX95.

Thanks again Paddy, I'll take a look at those tripods.
 
I'm using the 883 (new this year) on rather old Gitzo legs / new Manfrotto 128RC head - old school but works for me. May be lucky but the Gitzo legs have lasted for years, with odd new screws, etc.

cheers, alan
 
Hi Alan

I've only got a decrepit old Velbon Sherpa, I don't really want to pay £300-plus for a tripod, more like £150.

But also I don't want to compromise the quality of the view the scope gives me. I like the simplicity of the Velbon's, even if people feel they are tat.
 
I've only got a decrepit old Velbon Sherpa, I don't really want to pay £300-plus for a tripod, more like £150.

But also I don't want to compromise the quality of the view the scope gives me. I like the simplicity of the Velbon's, even if people feel they are tat.

With a high quality scope - heck, with ANY scope - you need a good tripod. It's not just about the views actually. Using a cheap, low quality tripod may be very expensive indeed it something goes wrong. I've seen more than one tripod being blown over at the coast, and seeing an expensive scope crashing into some rocks is not a pretty sight.

It doesn't need to be a Gitzo (even though I prefer them over any other make) but it needs to be stable and totally reliable. And you need a good quality head as well.

Hermann
 
Regarding a tripod..
There are no cheap but adequate solutions I'm afraid. I don't much give tripod advice anymore, as no one listens anyway, and my tastes probably aren't as mainstream as most, but I will say you're probably into about $300 for aluminum legs and video head at the low end. $500-700. for carbon and a lighter head. This is for stuff that isn't junk, that you'll actually want to have and use down the road. Benro, Gitzo, Sirui, Manfrotto are names you'll likely be looking at. Lots of threads here on BF to review.

You're getting a great scope, don't underestimate the need for and quality of the tripod to use that scope.

:t::t::t:

Hermann
(whose oldest aluminium Gitzo is now more than
35 years old and still going strongly)
 
Hi Alan

I've only got a decrepit old Velbon Sherpa, I don't really want to pay £300-plus for a tripod, more like £150.

But also I don't want to compromise the quality of the view the scope gives me. I like the simplicity of the Velbon's, even if people feel they are tat.

I have the Velbon Ultra Luxi, a wonderfully compact lightweight tripod for my Nikon ED50, but marginal, imho, for even my 60mm Nikon EDIII, which now rests on a much more sturdy (and heavier) CF Burris tripod, bought at a closeout.

Kevin is entirely correct, you have a great scope, to get full value of seeing from it you need to give it a solid base. Hermann and others have shared their insights regarding options, I'd only add that used tripods and heads are often great values, plus there are often deals and closeouts.
Tripods and heads are the unsung heroes of scoping, well worth your attention and your $$.
 
thanks for your opinions, I do believe you all.

I'm looking at the Manfrotto MK290XTC-3W or the Manfrotto 055 range. I know people say don't buy a good scope and a junk tripod, but if money grew on trees yes I would spend £700 on the latter.
 
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As others have said, you'll definitely want a sturdy mount for your scope - the sherpa is a workhorse, but there are much better tripods for not much more. I wouldn't discount a deal on used tripods, for example a used Velbon carbon fibre tripod or reliable Manfrotto 055 would be good options, or perhaps something like this. With the money left over you should get a decent fluid head as that will make a huge difference against a standard pan/tilt, there is a good deal in the private ads on here too ;)
Enjoy your new purchase!
 
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As others have said, you'll definitely want a sturdy mount for your scope - the sherpa is a workhorse, but there are much better tripods for not much more. I wouldn't discount a deal on used tripods, for example a used Velbon carbon fibre tripod or reliable Manfrotto 055 would be good options, or perhaps something like this. With the money left over you should get a decent fluid head as that will make a huge difference against a standard pan/tilt, there is a good deal in the private ads on here too ;)
Enjoy your new purchase!

Many thanks Daniel, I have now bought the Manfrotto 055 you linked, many thanks.

I need a pan head to go with it - does anyone know if the Manfrotto 128RC fluid pan head goes with it? Seen one on Ebay £35.
Bit of a risk I admit, but saves pennies.
 
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Many thanks Daniel, I have now bought the Manfrotto 055 you linked, many thanks.

I need a pan head to go with it - does anyone know if the Manfrotto 128RC fluid pan head goes with it? Seen one on Ebay £35.
Bit of a risk I admit, but saves pennies.

Good choice, the foot of the scope will fit straight into the head and there is a safety lock on there. It should fit straight onto the tripod without any issue, but the screw can be reversed if depending on the thread size. Enjoy, let us know how you get on with your new set up.
 
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