-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Suffolk Sea Eagles? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sy V
- Start date
RobLucking
Well-known member
Personally I think that the paucity of evidence of previous breeding in East Anglia is a bit of a red herring. I would argue that it is habitat quality that should be the main determinant for the release location, not previous occurrence. Comparisons of breeding productivity of WTEs in lowland wetland wetland habitats with those breeding in upland habitats have shown that lowland eagles are more productive than upland eagles. Therefore, if the chances of a successful re-introduction are to be maximised, birds should be released in the best quality habitats. If the release location was to be determined by most recent proof of occurrence, the Lake District with documented breeding in 1791 would be the place to go. However the habitat is not as good and the chance of success would be reduced.
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
I'm not sure about that, tbh. If you look at writings from several centuries ago, from people who worked on the land and took great interest in Nature (e.g. John Clare) their knowledge of species actually seems quite poor. There are lots of things that they lump together, or don't know the names of or have a name for. Even birds that would presumably be familiar (like harriers).
Another suggestion could be that they were used culturally/ritually (like birds of paradise in PNG, or traded like Gyrs in medieval falconry). In which case, they could have ended up there through international trading - we know that Bronze Age Britons had extensive trading routes spanning half-way round the world, and that they seemed to value eagles (at in Orkney sites). I think it might be dangerous to autmoatically assume that they're local, or even recent to that time - they may have been passed down as valuable items from previous centuries. If they were valued, then they'd have likely been hunted out quite early. We know that cranes etc were imported in the middle ages for food, and that their names in local records for feasts or trade do not necessarily relate to native birds.
Last edited:
Matt Prince
Sharkbait
I don't know how accurate the quoted £600,000 figure is, but, whatever the true amount, with a limited set of funds and a whole raft of existing species in serious trouble, how can this be right? In fact, how did this idea get this far?
Don't get me wrong - they are awesome birds - and I'm pro the Scottish reintroduction - but I can't see how the RSPB can justify wasting money required elsewhere for this.
Save the hen harriers first.
Don't get me wrong - they are awesome birds - and I'm pro the Scottish reintroduction - but I can't see how the RSPB can justify wasting money required elsewhere for this.
Save the hen harriers first.
black kite 1964
Well-known member
White tailed eagles are a great bird to see in the feather!! I have seen them on the western Isles!! That is where they should remain.
There is no evidence that this species bred in East Anglia. Indeed, the habitat has changed significantly over the past 300 years. On that basis alone the project should not happen!!
Perhaps the RSPB are planning to release these birds in the car park at Minsmere, bringing in TV, Radio and more paying punters! I suspect WT Eagles would cause disruption to other breeding species in East Anglia.
Nothing more than a poorly thought out PR stunt. If you want to see these birds, make the effort and go to scotland!!
:cat::cat:
There is no evidence that this species bred in East Anglia. Indeed, the habitat has changed significantly over the past 300 years. On that basis alone the project should not happen!!
Perhaps the RSPB are planning to release these birds in the car park at Minsmere, bringing in TV, Radio and more paying punters! I suspect WT Eagles would cause disruption to other breeding species in East Anglia.
Nothing more than a poorly thought out PR stunt. If you want to see these birds, make the effort and go to scotland!!
:cat::cat:
Which species? I see no species in East Anglia that would suffer population disruption.
East Anglia is more optimum white tailed eagle habitat than the Western Isles.
You are failing to recognise that the current WTSE distribution in Britain is artificial - the WTSE is no more a bird of the western isles than the red kite is a bird of remote Welsh valleys.
I'm undecided on the reintroduction scheme because I'm not convinced it is the best use of funds, but there is nothing inappropriate about Sea eagles in East Anglia - they will more than likely colonise by themselves anyway as they have already reached Holland.
Last edited:
Ditto, I would not place it as the highest priority, but the arguments being used against it are, by and large, more akin to scare-mongering than any reality of problems that would occur.
Should the program go ahead, I certainly would not oppose it as the only logical reason to do so would be on the cash allocation question, but even then, given such a program is likely to generate cash that would not otherwise be appear, I woud not have serious worries.
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
Funding seems to be the primary concern. Also, in the Times article, a valid point was raised about if a pair decides to nest on your land - you are basically screwed and can no longer go about your business within a significant buffer zone at risk of prosecution. That has to be wrong.
RobLucking
Well-known member
Totally with you on your former point Amarillo.
Re your second point, I think the project is actually quite good value for money. For £600k we could re-introduce a species to England and increase the range of a UK red-listed species. Compare this to the £3 billion which will be spent on the Environmental Stewardship scheme between 2007 and 2015. Don't get me wrong, I think its great that we've got that sort of money to spend on conservation in the wider countryside but given that the farmland bird index has yet to see a sustained upturn I do wonder whether that money is being used as wisely as it could.
Re your second point, I think the project is actually quite good value for money. For £600k we could re-introduce a species to England and increase the range of a UK red-listed species. Compare this to the £3 billion which will be spent on the Environmental Stewardship scheme between 2007 and 2015. Don't get me wrong, I think its great that we've got that sort of money to spend on conservation in the wider countryside but given that the farmland bird index has yet to see a sustained upturn I do wonder whether that money is being used as wisely as it could.
RobLucking
Well-known member
Not sure that this would be the case. Think of the number of marsh harriers and stone-curlews that nest on agricultural land. Farming doesn't grind to a halt because of them. Instead ways are found so that land owners can go about their business and the safety of the birds secured at the same time.
black kite 1964
Well-known member
Yes. But the species has previously bred in Scotland not East Anglia - that is the point that I am making! If we follow the logic of a introduction which this is, then Beaver, Wolf and Moose are next!! Ospreys have returned to England and Wales of there own accord. This questions the project at Rutland - which was a PR and not conservation in its main objective.:cat::cat:
well they nested as far south as the Isle of Wight until 1780 so it seems unlikely they wouldn't have been present in optimal habitat in East Anglia. The proof isn't there I accept, but logic suggests they were.
I'd be in favour of beavers, wolves and moose as well where enough of the right habitat exists. In fact I'd be more in favour of them because they aren't going to come back without our help!
black kite 1964
Well-known member
Wild boar, Corpu, cane toads why not have the lot!! Thing is that when the go wrong, people then start talking about a cull!!
1780 is a long time ago a habitat has changed out of all proportion.
What will be will be!!:cat::cat:
jurek
Well-known member
With your view, basically every conservation project can be attacked - because maybe within last year habitat has changed. And maybe something never bred on this precise locality, only next village. And maybe money should be better spend on poor children in Africa.
Maybe habitat changed significantly and is now favorable for eagles?
black kite 1964
Well-known member
I not quiet sure what point you are trying to make!
The issue is not about conservation, it is about wildlife tourism!
Historically the RSPB have been very good at protecting existing and creating new habitat. In that role they should have birdwatchers support!
This however is about introducing a species to an area which there is no evidence that it has bred previously. This is very important, as the criteria for release schemes (with the exception of Rutlands Ospreys) makes it clear that a species should have bred in the region historically.
WT Eagle is being released in Eastern Scotland. I suspect that birds will eventually find there way to North East England, although not for a number of years.
In fact that habitat in Suffolk is very good for WT Eagle, suggests that continental birds could well expand into East Anglia, a number of other species have done it without help!! That is how we should leave it! Birds can FLY can't they!!
The fact that a few people in "Suits" think it would be good idea for tourism to have some "barn doors" flying around, does mean that we should all agree.
If we look at some of the species that in history have lived in Britain, do we think that they should all be reintroduced. My idea of conservation is NOT turning East Anglia into a "Safari Park"!!!:cat::cat:
RobLucking
Well-known member
I think that's a bit unfair! The white-tailed eagle is a red-listed species and in my view just as deserving of dedicated conservation action as all of the other red-listed bird species in the UK - skylarks, tree sparrows, bitterns etc.
We're fortunate that most of our red-listed species can be conserved 'in situ' through conventional methods such as habitat management, increasing natural food supplies, nest site protection etc. However for large raptors, such as WTE, the only feasible way of increasing the population in a relatively short period of time is by a re-introduction. I'm sure WTE would recolonise under their own steam eventually but it would take decades.
I don't for one minute believe that tourism is the main driver for the project - if it was, why choose coastal East Anglia which has more than its fair share of tourists!
We're fortunate that most of our red-listed species can be conserved 'in situ' through conventional methods such as habitat management, increasing natural food supplies, nest site protection etc. However for large raptors, such as WTE, the only feasible way of increasing the population in a relatively short period of time is by a re-introduction. I'm sure WTE would recolonise under their own steam eventually but it would take decades.
I don't for one minute believe that tourism is the main driver for the project - if it was, why choose coastal East Anglia which has more than its fair share of tourists!
black kite 1964
Well-known member
Rob. The point I am trying to make is that the criteria for reintroductions needs to be carefully thought out!! I agree with the the Red Data stuff to some degree! If we discussing Red Kites being realeased in Suffolk - no problem - the species previously bred! Having said that I believe a pair of Kites (german Orgin) made there way to Suffolk to breed!
The safari park comment is about, if Sea Eagles, what next!
The tourism factor is relevant! The discussions re Sea Eagles being introduced to Norfolk had Tourism as an Important thread.
More than happy to continue the discussion!
Please note I not pro shooting, have no land interests in suffolk and have never watched " one man and and his dog". I quiet like cats though!!:cat::cat:
Happy to
RobLucking
Well-known member
There are guidelines set out for re-introduction projects by the IUCN - International Union for the Conservation of nature. I think one of the stumbling blocks with this particular project is that many people are looking at it as a re-introduction/introduction to Suffolk and then getting tied up in knots over the historical occurrence question. I prefer to look at the project as a reintroduction to England - and the WTE was undoubtedly an English breeding species in the fairly recent past - with East Anglia being chosen as best location for a re-introduced English population because it contains the most suitable habitat. We could probably argue for ages over the conservation merits of reintroducing the WTE. I believe that it is worthwhile, I'd love to see them back as an English breeding species and I don't think they will devastate livestock farms, bittern populations, tern colonies, eat people's dogs or carry small children away!
I also think the tourism angle has been overplayed. WTEs have brought important economic benefits to Mull through increased tourism etc. I don't believe it is a significant driver for the East Anglian project as we already have a very healthy tourism industry and I don't think that WTEs will make that much of a difference from a tourism perspective.
I also think the tourism angle has been overplayed. WTEs have brought important economic benefits to Mull through increased tourism etc. I don't believe it is a significant driver for the East Anglian project as we already have a very healthy tourism industry and I don't think that WTEs will make that much of a difference from a tourism perspective.
Similar threads
