StarainBoy
Well-known member
I've just blogged
and wonder if willow tits still exist in Worcs.
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Willow Tits (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter StarainBoy
- Start date
According to the 2006 West Midland Bird Report the last known breeding pair was at Bittell res that year although they probably still occur in less birded areas. In Shropshire round Bridgenorth while surveying large areas of farmland I would occasionaly come across the odd pair in scruby hedge lines with ditches with flowing water.
Mike.
Mike.
StarainBoy
Well-known member
Thanks, Mike. I'll probably be checking Trimpley again since the old aunt lives out that way. I was wondering about the call then and am happier about it now after checking my Roché recordings.
I find that nazely call very distinctive which attracts your attention to them in thick willow carr, Brandon Marsh has been good this year for them & 1 in the winter was coming to a feeder in the carpark at Ladywalk. Its only in the last couple of years that I have started to note all my sightings of these birds.
Mike.
Mike.
StarainBoy
Well-known member
Worth going abroad to Warwickshire then!
StarainBoy
Well-known member
That's over by the aunt as well! A place I've meant to visit for a while, especially with the quail calling nearby in the summer. (I can refer to the summer as being past now, can I?)
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midlands birder
Well-known member
i had a pair at blackstone rock(well a little downriver from there) in stourport/kiddie area on 5/07/09 shows there are still a few around,also a few in the wyre if i remember rightly
MB
MB
midlands birder
Well-known member
the call is the most different, in marsh is is a 'pee-choo' sound while willows make a nasly call which is easy to tell from marsh, learn these calls and the seperation is quite easy.
but if the bird doesent call then look out for on marsh, a glossy cap(on willow it is dull), a small bib, and a lack of pale bar on the secondrys(but sometimes they do have a pale bar)
willow tits also have a buldge on the back of the head which marsh doesent show, check out this video i took of an overwintering marsh tit at my local patch
MB
willlow tit is rarer anyway
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gareth_blockley
Smile people
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
This is misleading and incorrect. A recent review has clarifed what to look for: http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/8431/
Shape of the head, cap gloss and bib are not reliable at all and are not recommended for identification, due to a large amount of overlap. The pale panel (not bar) on the secondaries is also only 'moderately reliable'.
The best feature (apart from voice) is the bill marks http://blx1.bto.org/pdf/ringmigration/24_2/broughton1.pdf (particularly in photos). In the field, the cheek pattern is best (white ear covert on both, but with cold grey-brown wash behind the ear/on the neck for Marsh, and either plain whitish or subtle warm buff for Willow).
On Gareth's worcesterbirding link, the last double photo are both Willow Tits, not Willow and Marsh.
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midlands birder
Well-known member
im sorry if my info isnt propperly correct, but i have found that these points work on a fair chunk of marsh/willow tits i see
as for the pale pannel, this is what i ment but wrongly worded the sentence,
as many people on the worcester fourum and on my blog know im prone to spelling and wording mistakeso
MB
Brian Stretch
Well-known member
The last double photo on this link is correctly labelled. The Marsh Tit is the same individual as in the 2nd double photo down from the top and was obtained in an area where Marsh Tits are still relatively common and Willow Tits have vanished. It was included in the article because it does appear Willow-like and highlights just how difficult these two species can be to separate.
Brian
___________________________
www.worcesterbirding.co.uk
www.westmidlandsbirding.co.uk
Brian Stretch
Well-known member
It's probably worth mentioning that because Willow Tit has now become such a rare bird in Worcestershire, it is now a Category A description species. As there are no diagnostic field marks, only those descriptions which include mention of the call will be assessed.
Although the pale mark on the base of the bill may be useful in assessing photographs, it is often difficult to see in the field and is subject to viewing conditions and lighting.
For the record, so far, there is only one acceptable occurrence during the whole of 2009 and that is the well watched bird present at Grimley since late summer, although there is a record of a couple of birds in the Teme Valley which have yet to be assessed.
Brian
___________________________
www.worcesterbirding.co.uk
www.westmidlandsbirding.co.uk
Although the pale mark on the base of the bill may be useful in assessing photographs, it is often difficult to see in the field and is subject to viewing conditions and lighting.
For the record, so far, there is only one acceptable occurrence during the whole of 2009 and that is the well watched bird present at Grimley since late summer, although there is a record of a couple of birds in the Teme Valley which have yet to be assessed.
Brian
___________________________
www.worcesterbirding.co.uk
www.westmidlandsbirding.co.uk
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
Hmmm, actually, that pic (2nd double down) doesn't show any of the high-reliability Marsh Tit features either. How was it identified? If purely on the basis of 'Willow don't occur there' then I'm not sure that's justifiable. It does look quite like a Willow Tit. Was it taken in June-August? If it's a juvenile, it might not be possible to call it (unless it definitely called itself?). Are there any other pics?
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
That's too conservative. I think if you get records that mention a clear cheek pattern (with wing panel as a supporting feature), then you can safely i.d. most non-juveniles (Sep-May). A bird with a Willowy cheek and wing is going to be pretty safe, ditto for Marsh.
Bill mark is usually pretty obvious on photos, as is cheek, so it's possible to i.d. virtually all (especially non-juvs) from a photo - even a fairly poor one. Try it in the gallery and see. Bill mark is also sometimes possible to see in the field, so I'd certainly consider those too - they're not shy birds so very close views will be possible sometimes.
There's no point in not considering all descriptions, no matter how good, just because they don't call. Birds wont call much of the time. Granted, though, a lot would have to remain as 'claimed, especially juvs.
Brian Stretch
Well-known member
If a bird is described as showing a suite of plumage features in support of the identification as a Willow Tit, it may well be one, but unfortunately descriptions based purely on visuals are often subjective. They will be dependent on how co-operative the bird is, light conditions and most importantly the experience of the observer. Many descriptions are also lifted straight from the books and are of no value when they quote ‘lack of glossy cap, large bib’ etc etc.
Structure is frequently far more important than plumage, as the pictures in the above quoted article demonstrate. The Marsh Tit in both the double pictures clearly has the structure of Marsh, lacking the characteristic bull-necked appearance of Willow. Both species are often very vocal and indeed, it’s usually a calling bird that will alert the observer to its presence in the first place. Even if you did chance upon a silent bird, persistence will usually result in clinching the id by call. As has already been stated, only the call is diagnostic and while it may be a conservative approach, that’s exactly how it should be. The writing appears to be on the wall for Willow Tit in Worcestershire and I feel that it is important that the remaining birds should be properly documented.
While I could easily spend endless hours surfing the web, looking at pictures of both species, I’d rather be out in the field studying the real things while I still can. There is no substitute.
Brian
___________________________
www.worcesterbirding.co.uk
www.westmidlandsbirding.co.uk
Structure is frequently far more important than plumage, as the pictures in the above quoted article demonstrate. The Marsh Tit in both the double pictures clearly has the structure of Marsh, lacking the characteristic bull-necked appearance of Willow. Both species are often very vocal and indeed, it’s usually a calling bird that will alert the observer to its presence in the first place. Even if you did chance upon a silent bird, persistence will usually result in clinching the id by call. As has already been stated, only the call is diagnostic and while it may be a conservative approach, that’s exactly how it should be. The writing appears to be on the wall for Willow Tit in Worcestershire and I feel that it is important that the remaining birds should be properly documented.
While I could easily spend endless hours surfing the web, looking at pictures of both species, I’d rather be out in the field studying the real things while I still can. There is no substitute.
Brian
___________________________
www.worcesterbirding.co.uk
www.westmidlandsbirding.co.uk
bitterntwisted
Graham Howard Shortt
Brian,
I don't think KnockerNorton lacks field experience of Marsh and Willow Tits. Or concern for their demise.
Graham
