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Canada Geese being flushed from Nature Reserve and shot - is this legal? (1 Viewer)

Hi

Just had an otherwise good day's birding at Arlington Reservoir, owned by SE Water. Walking back at nearly dusk, the large flock of Canada Geese which had come in to roost on the water for the night were flushed into the air. Not sure what was causing it, but saw a man with a lurcher hanging round earlier. He came in to check Hide, saw it was occupied (by me) and left very quickly. 20 mins later, as I was walking along the road just adjacent to the reserve, several small skeins of geese were panicked from Reserve. I heard shots, lots and very rapid. I looked accross field and another person was hiding in trees with a shot gun directly under the Geese's flight path from Reserve. It seemed too well coordinated to be coincidental that they were frightened into the sight of the rifle. He took one goose down, another gradually lost altitude and disappeared into a clump of trees, another, obviously injured flew slowly back towards the Reserve, the rest flew off into the distance in the opposite direction.

The person saw me watching, and instantly turned and ran into the woods. But I left, I could't watch anymore. Shots were still being fired as I reached half a mile up the road.

OK it may be legal, but to see birds flushed from roost on a Nature Reserve like this and then shot, was a rotten end to an otherwise pleasent day. Especially considering the Canada Geese were very much part of that day, and I had spent some time counting and observing them

I'd like to hear some views - if this sounds unlawful, I will happily make a formal complaint. In the least, I shall complain to SE Water as they are supposed to be responsible for the birds and other wildlife on the Reserve.

oh.. and there were a number of Greylags amongst the Canada today, I doubt whether the person could have told the difference.
 
choupique1 said:
depends on who is flushing them and how
Click to expand...

Sorry didn't mean to confuse things - Ive posted details on the other thread (thought the IBWO thread would occupy everyone this time of night ;) )
 
I don't know if legal or not, but certainly a unpleasant way to end the day. I'd be putting a question to the site owner to see if they were sanctioning any control measures - if they were, probably all was above board as the species is on Defra's list of species deemed cullable. If the shooters were on land where they did not have permission, then I guess they would be breaking firearm laws. Unfortunately, I suppose you did not get a chance to request their addresses or take a vehicle number, so even if it was illegal hunters, whether anything will come of it is another question.
 
Jos Stratford said:
I don't know if legal or not, but certainly a unpleasant way to end the day. I'd be putting a question to the site owner to see if they were sanctioning any control measures - if they were, probably all was above board as the species is on Defra's list of species deemed cullable. If the shooters were on land where they did not have permission, then I guess they would be breaking firearm laws. Unfortunately, I suppose you did not get a chance to request their addresses or take a vehicle number, so even if it was illegal hunters, whether anything will come of it is another question.
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks Jos, that's exactly what I needed to hear. I'll contact SE Water at Arlington in the morning and see what they say. I have a pretty good description of at least one of the shooters. If it was all above board and as you say, Canada are 'cullable', nothing I can do about it. If it was an illegal shoot, it just might make them monitor the site more vigillantly - there are notices on the Hide etc with warnings of 24hr security guards etc - (guess I'll be a bit more careful in future of allowing certain birds to 'get under my skin' as a result of spending hours watching them') :-C
 
deborah4 said:
Ok, thanks Jos, that's exactly what I needed to hear. I'll contact SE Water at Arlington in the morning and see what they say. I have a pretty good description of at least one of the shooters. If it was all above board and as you say, Canada are 'cullable', nothing I can do about it. If it was an illegal shoot, it just might make them monitor the site more vigillantly - there are notices on the Hide etc with warnings of 24hr security guards etc - (guess I'll be a bit more careful in future of allowing certain birds to 'get under my skin' as a result of spending hours watching them') :-C
Click to expand...
provided everyone had permission to be where they were.. and mechanical means (motor boats, atv etc) were used to flush them.. yes this would be legal if all else was for example legal season, shooting time etc.
 
deborah4 said:
Ok, thanks Jos, that's exactly what I needed to hear. I'll contact SE Water at Arlington in the morning and see what they say. I have a pretty good description of at least one of the shooters. If it was all above board and as you say, Canada are 'cullable', nothing I can do about it. If it was an illegal shoot, it just might make them monitor the site more vigillantly - there are notices on the Hide etc with warnings of 24hr security guards etc - (guess I'll be a bit more careful in future of allowing certain birds to 'get under my skin' as a result of spending hours watching them') :-C
Click to expand...
All I would add is, if it was above board why where they behaving so furtively.
That experience would have ruined my day.

Mick
 
Mickymouse said:
That experience would have ruined my day.

Mick
Click to expand...

It did Mick and I can't get the image of it out of my head - I usually come home keen to write up my field notes and post a little 'report' for the day - my heart's just not in it - gonna post a few pics and sleep on it.
 
Mickymouse said:
All I would add is, if it was above board why where they behaving so furtively.
That experience would have ruined my day.

Mick
Click to expand...
can't speak for hunters in your country.. but here.... even if something may be legal.. doesn't mean it is ethical....... ie i have plenty deer that live in my back yard..... i would never take one of them......
 
Jos Stratford said:
Unfortunately, I suppose you did not get a chance to request their addresses or take a vehicle number, so even if it was illegal hunters, whether anything will come of it is another question.
Click to expand...

I don't suppose she did get a chance to ask - it would be a brave person indeed to confront someone holding a gun. Not a nice experience for you Deborah.
 
deborah4 said:
Hi

Just had an otherwise good day's birding at Arlington Reservoir, owned by SE Water. Walking back at nearly dusk, the large flock of Canada Geese which had come in to roost on the water for the night were flushed into the air. Not sure what was causing it, but saw a man with a lurcher hanging round earlier. He came in to check Hide, saw it was occupied (by me) and left very quickly. 20 mins later, as I was walking along the road just adjacent to the reserve, several small skeins of geese were panicked from Reserve. I heard shots, lots and very rapid. I looked accross field and another person was hiding in trees with a shot gun directly under the Geese's flight path from Reserve. It seemed too well coordinated to be coincidental that they were frightened into the sight of the rifle. He took one goose down, another gradually lost altitude and disappeared into a clump of trees, another, obviously injured flew slowly back towards the Reserve, the rest flew off into the distance in the opposite direction.

The person saw me watching, and instantly turned and ran into the woods. But I left, I could't watch anymore. Shots were still being fired as I reached half a mile up the road.

OK it may be legal, but to see birds flushed from roost on a Nature Reserve like this and then shot, was a rotten end to an otherwise pleasent day. Especially considering the Canada Geese were very much part of that day, and I had spent some time counting and observing them

I'd like to hear some views - if this sounds unlawful, I will happily make a formal complaint. In the least, I shall complain to SE Water as they are supposed to be responsible for the birds and other wildlife on the Reserve.

oh.. and there were a number of Greylags amongst the Canada today, I doubt whether the person could have told the difference.
Click to expand...
Hi Deborah,

Was the shooter actually on the reserve? If he wasn't, then you're wasting your time complaining to SE Water, there's little they can do about it. Geese often fly about at dusk, I've shot them myself when waiting for duck (mallard will be feeding heavily on stubbles at night at this time of year), so your assumption that anyone flushed them may be wrong. The guy with the lurcher may be totally unconnected - generally shooters and lurcher men don't get on too well! (lurchers are only owned by poachers in a majority of shooters eyes - I've owned lurchers for many years myself).

Why the shooter ran off is a bit of a mystery, unless he was doing a bit of 'freelancing' (poaching - that might then tie in with the lurcher man).


deborah4 said:
oh.. and there were a number of Greylags amongst the Canada today, I doubt whether the person could have told the difference.
Click to expand...
I can't let that one go Deborah : ) That's a totally unfair comment - you don't know the guy, he may be a perfectly legit shooter. Besides, if he did shoot a greylag it wouldn't have been illegal.

Jonathan
 
It is legal to cull canada geese in certain circumstances, but this sounds very dodgy for several reasons. One was that were shooting on or over a nature reserve, without any warning signs to the public or the reserve being closed. This tells you that they had no authority and were therefore armed tresspassers. Also, if they were within 50m of a public highway then that's also illegal. What I'd have done would be to call the police on your mobile on the spot, and tell them what you're seeing. It's only ever likely to result in a collar if they're caught red-handed - it's extremely difficult to prove otherwise.

One final point though, you seem to be confused over their weapons. Were they shotguns or rifles? This does make a difference. They were almost certainly shotguns, so the fact that you heard lots of rapid firing tells you that there were several blokes there.

The only way they could have been legal would be if they had the permission of the landowner (unlikely? you can find out by ringing them), were shooting legal weapons (registered shotguns) in a legal way (not on public land, 50m from a highway, not endangering the public) and were shooting legal species (canada geese can be shot all year round by people using legal methods on land they are permitted to be on).
 
Poecile said:
It is legal to cull canada geese in certain circumstances, but this sounds very dodgy for several reasons. One was that were shooting on or over a nature reserve, without any warning signs to the public or the reserve being closed. This tells you that they had no authority and were therefore armed tresspassers. Also, if they were within 50m of a public highway then that's also illegal. What I'd have done would be to call the police on your mobile on the spot, and tell them what you're seeing. It's only ever likely to result in a collar if they're caught red-handed - it's extremely difficult to prove otherwise.

One final point though, you seem to be confused over their weapons. Were they shotguns or rifles? This does make a difference. They were almost certainly shotguns, so the fact that you heard lots of rapid firing tells you that there were several blokes there.

The only way they could have been legal would be if they had the permission of the landowner (unlikely? you can find out by ringing them), were shooting legal weapons (registered shotguns) in a legal way (not on public land, 50m from a highway, not endangering the public) and were shooting legal species (canada geese can be shot all year round by people using legal methods on land they are permitted to be on).
Click to expand...
Hi Deborah,

I'd generally agree with Poecil, just a couple of points though.

Although they can't be shot year round like Canadas, the season for greylags runs from Sept. 1st to Jan. 31st or Feb 20th, depending on where the bird was shot (above or below high water mark - yes, I know it's daft!), so anyone with permission to shoot on the land wouldn't be breaking the
law if they shot a greylag.

We need to establish where the guy(s) was shooting - if he was on surrounding farmland, had permission from the landowner and was
following the rules laid out by Poecile about highways, shotgun cert., etc., then he may not have been breaking any laws - it's not illegal to
have a shoot next to a nature reserve. Hopefully there's some sort of relationship between the reserve and surrounding landowners, so
perhaps you could raise your concerns with the warden?

One final point - it's illegal to discharge a weapon within a paltry 50ft from the centre of any public highway, not 50m - which would be
more sensible!

"The Highways Act 1980 Section 161 in England and Wales, makes it an offence without lawful authority or excuse to discharge any firearm
within 50 feet of the centre of the highway and in consequence of which the user of the highway is injured, interrupted or endangered. This
does not apply to footpaths and bridleways".

http://www.basc.org.uk/content/lampingpractice

Jonathan
 
Interesting bit of "legalese" - it would appear that simply discharging a weapon within 50 feet of the centre of the highway is not an offence in itself, there would need to be a user of that highway who was injured, interrupted or endangered as a consequence of that act.
 
"The Highways Act 1980 Section 161 in England and Wales, makes it an offence without lawful authority or excuse to discharge any firearm
within 50 feet of the centre of the highway and in consequence of which the user of the highway is injured, interrupted or endangered. "

The issue here is highlighted in bold as far as establishing the illegality of shooting in this instance I would think. Trespass (ie on adjacent property) for instance, by poachers, would not satisfy as 'authority' for using a firearm, therefore the distance from public highway would be irrelevant, regardless of how satisfactory or not satisfactory the distance is, depending on your views.

Having left a message with SE Water this morning, I am informed by the Conservation Ranger for the Arundel Reservoir, Alex Stephens, that SE Water have a policy of not culling Canada Geese (or any wild birds at all) on their Reservoir sites. He has taken details and has passed them onto the Conservation Ranger for Arlington - and I'm awaiting the call.

It remains to be seen what action they will take in terms of ensuring better monitoring of activities on the site at dusk, (such as flushing geese from the Reserve, in order they be shot), and any follow up with neighbouring property owners to find out if they had sanctioned shooting on their land last night.
 
deborah4 said:
"The Highways Act 1980 Section 161 in England and Wales, makes it an offence without lawful authority or excuse to discharge any firearm
within 50 feet of the centre of the highway and in consequence of which the user of the highway is injured, interrupted or endangered. "

The issue here is highlighted in bold as far as establishing the illegality of shooting in this instance I would think. Trespass (ie on adjacent property) for instance, by poachers, would not satisfy as 'authority' for using a firearm, therefore the distance from public highway would be irrelevant, regardless of how satisfactory or not satisfactory the distance is, depending on your views.
Click to expand...

Well, no, not really. The offence is the entirety of the sentence, not just a part of it. They may be committing other offences, but breaching s. 161 Highways Act 1980 ain't one of them!
 
MSA said:
The offence is the entirety of the sentence, not just a part of it.
Click to expand...

That's the point Mark. The clause/wording requiring 'lawful authority' or 'excuse' is inserted (as it is into many statute wording) to ensure for example, Police officers injuring a passer by in attempting to foil an armed robbery or someone acting in self-defence and injuring their attacker, cannot be convicted simply on the basis of using an armed weapon on or too near a public highway and causing injury as a result. They may be convicted of a number of other things eg. manslaughter (under OAP) etc etc but the wording here prevents prosecution per se when injury occurs as a result of firing weapon on or close to Highway. Not having the 'Lawful authority' or 'Excuse' is a prerequisite for prosecution - establishing this was the case would be the first step in applying the provisions of this clause in their entirety.

You're absolutely right in that the provisions of the HA wouldn't apply anyway as no one was injured etc. One of offences, re: shooting in this instance, could be Armed Trespass if, and only if it could be established, the person carrying out the shooting was trespassing last night. As far as relating to 'flushing birds' from the Reserve, in order to get them shot, I'm still unclear what the position might be relating to Nature Reserves and wild birds which is my main question, but again, anyone doing this at the site, could be still contravening trespass laws in being on the site and carrying out activities contrary to the owners implied, or stated invitation. (obviously this would exclude the actual shooter who was on adjacent land)
 
Last edited:
Whatever the upshot, well done for reporting this.

(totally OT: "The Highways Act... makes it an offence without lawful authority or excuse to discharge any firearm within 50 feet of the centre of the highway" - this sounds really outdated... would this even get you to the hard shoulder on the M25? Luckily I think you'd be run over before you had the chance to hurt anyone else)
 
Sorry for the slow response, Deborah. Reading through your report again it seems likely to me that these guys were operating illegally; their furtivness in checking the hide, having lurchers (preferred breed of poachers) and running into the woods when spotted all suggest this. They wern't expecting you to be on foot, probably the carpark was empty as the reserve was closing. Having seen you may detur them doing it again too soon, they might think you were a local just walking home. Poachers are no longer impoverished yokels just trying to feed their families, a way out of date image, this sounds like a well practised gang. These guys will do it again.

Armed tresspass is taken seriously by Sussex police. I know of a case, old now, but not too far away, where four people were jailed for armed tresspass and assalt. Sussex police have stated that they have increased their rural policing in response to increased levels of rural crime and they even have a wildlife crime unit now. (No doubt small and underfunded.) It may be worth reporting this incident to them. Obviously too late this time but it may result in a patrol car passing by Arlington at dusk over the winter.

I think a cull of geese requires special permissions and as someone said this would probably be publicised. Farmers are discouraged by the government from shooting ducks and geese through the new rules and regulations of the SFP. This is the new implimentation of subsidies based on environmental considerations rather than production. For example, if it can be demonstrated that geese are damaging a crop, more money can be paid not to control their numbers.

So sorry our otherwise happy day ended so badly for you. I think you were right to report this to South East Water.
 
joannechattaway said:
Sorry for the slow response, Deborah. Reading through your report again it seems likely to me that these guys were operating illegally; their furtivness in checking the hide, having lurchers (preferred breed of poachers) and running into the woods when spotted all suggest this. They wern't expecting you to be on foot, probably the carpark was empty as the reserve was closing. Having seen you may detur them doing it again too soon, they might think you were a local just walking home. Poachers are no longer impoverished yokels just trying to feed their families, a way out of date image, this sounds like a well practised gang. These guys will do it again.
Click to expand...
Poachers these days poach for the 'crack' - for the fun of it. Organised gangs of poachers don't poach geese! Deer maybe, sometimes pheasant, but not geese - there's no market for them. If they are poachers, they're just a couple of chancers.


joannechattaway said:
I think a cull of geese requires special permissions and as someone said this would probably be publicised.
Click to expand...
Geese are shot throughout the UK for sport, not as part of a cull. Only Canada geese are culled, apart from on Islay, as far as I know.


joannechattaway said:
Farmers are discouraged by the government from shooting ducks and geese through the new rules and regulations of the SFP. This is the new implimentation of subsidies based on environmental considerations rather than production. For example, if it can be demonstrated that geese are damaging a crop, more money can be paid not to control their numbers.
Click to expand...
Farmers can make more money by renting the shooting out (around 80 quid per flight) than they can in subsidies. Often one 'guide' has an agreement with a number of landowners in an area and advertises goose shooting in the shooting press:

http://www.safariinscotland.com/html/en/goose.html

Jonathan
 
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