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carnioli (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Taphrospilus
- Start date
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
It's not any l/L, but definitely an e (as well as several) in Reinecke. Compare them all.
/B
Thanks for this clarification. You are correct. From all the sources that cite her name, it's either Hanna Charlotte or Johanne Charlotte.
I also figured out the "Berlin, Klein Bennebek, Schleswig, Schleswig-Holstein" location problem. In the FamilySearch website (where this location comes from), when you introduce a location, it suggests "standardizing" it. When you introduce "Berlin, Prussia, Germany" it suggests to standardize it as "Berlin, Klein Bennebek, Schleswig, Schleswig-Holstein". When you introduce "Berlin, Prussia" (without the Germany part), it suggests to standardize it as "Berlin, Brandenburg, Preußen". I believe Preußen is Prussia in German, correct? So I think this whole thing is just a standardization problem. Now to begin with "Berlin, Prussia, Germany" as it was introduced originally, based on the biography of Julian Carmiol written by Francisco Carmiol Calvo is incorrect, as Prussia is not a place in Germany.
I agree with you, but I think its Reineche. See this other source I found...
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
I somehow doubt it, simply as "Reineche" doesn't look/sounds German, contrary to Reinecke (that does) ... and handwriting is always handwriting.
Note, that there´s, for example, a (Miss) Reinecke mentioned in: Los Alemanes en Nicaragua, by Göetz von Houwald (Ed.), 1975:
If relevant, or not, is far beyond me (most likely the latter), could be a completely different (Miss) Reinecke. Though, maybe she abandoned (a) Carmiol and Costa Rica for a "Hol(l)mann" and Nicargua ... !?
Also note (from what I can tell) that Karl Hoffmann (1823–1859), who accompanied Julius crossing the Atlantic, is mentioned on p.215.
Keep digging!
/B
If relevant, or not, is far beyond me (most likely the latter), could be a completely different (Miss) Reinecke. Though, maybe she abandoned (a) Carmiol and Costa Rica for a "Hol(l)mann" and Nicargua ... !?
Also note (from what I can tell) that Karl Hoffmann (1823–1859), who accompanied Julius crossing the Atlantic, is mentioned on p.215.
I believe you are right on the "ck" part. It is also relevant, but I do believe it is a different Reinecke. Per the records I have, Susanne Amalie Reinecke died in Lepanto, Puntarenas, Costa Rica in 1855. So unless she faked her death to run away with Hol(l)Mann in Nicaragua.... then again, plausible
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Plausible, yes, maybe, but likely ... nope. I would trust your record of her death in 1855, and think we can forget all about the Reinecke who, decades later, rode of into the Nicaraguan sunset with Mr Hol(l)Mann. I just wanted to point out that the name Reinecke wasn't/isn't that uncommon in German/y.... Per the records I have, Susanne Amalie Reinecke died in Lepanto, Puntarenas, Costa Rica in 1855. So unless she faked her death to run away with Hol(l)Mann in Nicaragua.... then again, plausible
However, could she (your Reinecke) possibly be a relative, like a younger sister (?) of Julius Reinecke, Ober-gartner in Berlin (i.e. Joh. [Johann/Johannes?] Heinr. [Heinrich] Julius Reinecke, 1809–1881), mentioned twice in the monthly journal Gartenflora 1881 (here and here) ...?
He was from the same city, in the same age and with a similar interest (alt. even occupation) as Don Carmiol. They could have known each other. Yes, a longshot, but take it for what it's worth. If anything at all.
Note that there's a special offer/advert/ad in the same Journal where your great-great-grandfather apparently tried to circulate and sell some "Sehr starke" [very strong] flowers. See p.323, or attached jpg.
/B
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
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I ran into the second one yesterday. You know what confuses me completely, that about 4 lines above Carnigohl, there is a Krüger Carmiol (yes, Carmiol, not Carnigohl).
This is the first time I see a German source with the name Carmiol. I looked into Krüger Carmiol in Ancestry and FamilySearch and found nothing....
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Must be a woman as Carmiol née (=geb.) Krüger (maiden name Krüger) and she is widow at that time. Krüger is not the first name.
May related to here...
later
...as in both Rentier (pensioner) is mentioned. But of course no clear evidence.
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Cornigohl?
Sorry I haven’t replied for a few days. I have found three possibilities on the origin of the Carnigohl family.
1) One is that it is related to the Carmiol family that lived around the same time (where the Kruger widow comes from). Although this seems the most obvious, from the scans I sent Taphrospilus, there isn’t much evidence to sustain this, and looks line just coincidence.
2) It is related to the Cornigohl family, from around 1700s in Berlin. This one I think the most plausible, because that family tree has several Carl Friedrich. Remember Carmiol senior (don Carmiol) was Christian Friedrich, he had a brother named Carl Christian, Carmiol senior’s father was Johann Friedrich and Carmiol junior was Carl Christian. Although I’m pretty sure Carl and Friedrich are both common names in Germany at that time, it is plausible as it matches the dates, the location, and Cornigohl is just one letter away from Carnigohl.
3) The third theory is that it is related to Karl Carmigohl, who lived around the same time whi apparently was a Czech illustrator around that time. Here is a link to a Czech encyclopedia (or at least that’s what I got from it with google translate: https://www.encyklopedieknihy.cz/index.php/Karl_Carmigohl (this is in Czech). Now, there is a possibility that Karl Carmigohl IS Carl Friedrich Cornigohl or his father Carl Cornigohl. It would make sense that Carnigohl is not originally German, as I’ve heard that surnames with that start with “C” instead of “K” are not that common on Germany (please let me know if this is incorrect).
I do have a scan that could have some info on Carl Cornigohl, and was wondering if somebody can read it? (I have higher quality scans if needed)
Sorry I haven’t replied for a few days. I have found three possibilities on the origin of the Carnigohl family.
1) One is that it is related to the Carmiol family that lived around the same time (where the Kruger widow comes from). Although this seems the most obvious, from the scans I sent Taphrospilus, there isn’t much evidence to sustain this, and looks line just coincidence.
2) It is related to the Cornigohl family, from around 1700s in Berlin. This one I think the most plausible, because that family tree has several Carl Friedrich. Remember Carmiol senior (don Carmiol) was Christian Friedrich, he had a brother named Carl Christian, Carmiol senior’s father was Johann Friedrich and Carmiol junior was Carl Christian. Although I’m pretty sure Carl and Friedrich are both common names in Germany at that time, it is plausible as it matches the dates, the location, and Cornigohl is just one letter away from Carnigohl.
3) The third theory is that it is related to Karl Carmigohl, who lived around the same time whi apparently was a Czech illustrator around that time. Here is a link to a Czech encyclopedia (or at least that’s what I got from it with google translate: https://www.encyklopedieknihy.cz/index.php/Karl_Carmigohl (this is in Czech). Now, there is a possibility that Karl Carmigohl IS Carl Friedrich Cornigohl or his father Carl Cornigohl. It would make sense that Carnigohl is not originally German, as I’ve heard that surnames with that start with “C” instead of “K” are not that common on Germany (please let me know if this is incorrect).
I do have a scan that could have some info on Carl Cornigohl, and was wondering if somebody can read it? (I have higher quality scans if needed)
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
I feel he was working as cotton printer https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kattundruck or maybe something with Kotuń (Poland)
There is some military part mentioned with Infanterie Regiment and a Charlotta Sophia Pruner. But all very difficult to read.
There is some military part mentioned with Infanterie Regiment and a Charlotta Sophia Pruner. But all very difficult to read.
I think the last name is Grunerten. Take a look at this other scan. Also in this it is clear cOrmigohl.
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Nothing major, but maybe of interest, see Historia de la historia natural de Costa Rica ... (here, all in Spanish):
What pieces of the dedicatees behind the Carmiol Birds remain missing?
To me it looks like we've found the true names, and years (as well as most dates), of "our guys"; Julius (a k a Julián alt. Julian) and Franz (a k a Francisco) [the latter being my main concern].
Or are some parts still in doubt?
Have we, for example, (for sure) established the Birth date of Franz ("Francisco Carmiol")?
Björn
Or: Biografía Karl Hoffmann: un naturalista en tiempos turbulentos (here):
At least both those papers indicate that Don Carmiol's surname originated from Carnigohl (and not Garnigohl, as earlier have been claimed, in this thread proven wrong).
What pieces of the dedicatees behind the Carmiol Birds remain missing?
To me it looks like we've found the true names, and years (as well as most dates), of "our guys"; Julius (a k a Julián alt. Julian) and Franz (a k a Francisco) [the latter being my main concern
].Or are some parts still in doubt?
Have we, for example, (for sure) established the Birth date of Franz ("Francisco Carmiol")?
Björn
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Martin, I was asking about the; ... Birth date of Franz ("Francisco Carmiol")?
His Birth year has been clear all along (at least since #8) in this thread.
/B
His Birth year has been clear all along (at least since #8) in this thread.
/B
His full birth date is:
26 June 1844, Berlin, Brandenburg, Preußen
I’m attaching the baptism record where it states his birth date.
I’ll look for the death record...
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Thanks Rafael! :t:
According to my notes he died; " ...the 29th of March 1875, in San José, Costa Rica – after having been bitten by a snake!"
Björn
According to my notes he died; " ...the 29th of March 1875, in San José, Costa Rica – after having been bitten by a snake!"
Björn
This date is correct, per the data I have. According to the this (from the familysearch website), this data comes from Revista de Agricultura 1973 (Carmiol Calvo). I don't have a copy of this, however my father does have an original copy of this magazine. He will get me a scan and I will confirm this date...
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