Flycatchers on Sumatra (1 Viewer)

Hi all,

Some confirmation and help please. All from Bukit Lawang, Sumatra, Indonesia. Forest edge.

I think 2 is regular Asian Brown Flycatcher Muscicapa dauurica dauurica and I first identified 1 as such, but now I see it is much browner. Not sure if it can be within normal variation of daurica, or can it be a Brown-streaked ?

I'm pretty sure 3 is Dark-sided Flycatcher (Muscicapa sibirica rothschildi), and 4 has same compact jizz and dark back, but much less streaked on flanks with large white belly. What is that ? Another sub-species of Dark-sided, such nominate (but then slighlt out of range) ?

Any advice appreciated. Thanks.

3 Looks like Brown-streaked to me (Eaton et al), complete with yellow, dark tipped, lower mandible?

Dark-sided is illustrated with an all dark bill which may eliminate 4 as this species also?

1,2 and 4 just Asian Brown Flycatchers for me.

Andy - 1 lacks prominent streaks and the coverts can be seen to be tipped white (not buff). Ideally to confirm we want a rear shot showing the upperpart, and particularly rump, colour.

3 - Dark-sided Flycatcher. Note prominent moustachial, collar, extensively streaking, and also you can see a dark streak on the vent.

James

James Eaton said:

1,2 and 4 just Asian Brown Flycatchers for me.

Andy - 1 lacks prominent streaks and the coverts can be seen to be tipped white (not buff). Ideally to confirm we want a rear shot showing the upperpart, and particularly rump, colour.

3 - Dark-sided Flycatcher. Note prominent moustachial, collar, extensively streaking, and also you can see a dark streak on the vent.

James

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Thanks James, very helpful. I will have some tough cuckoos for you late.. :gh:

Let's say I misjudge the shape of 4, that's ok for ABF.

I've then a last question : both 1 and 2 were close to each other, and the difference in colour, with fairly similar light, was striking. Cold grey to warm brown. Is Asian Brown F. really that variable, or can they be of different sub-species ?

Happy New Year !

Valéry Schollaert said:

Is Asian Brown F. really that variable, or can they be of different sub-species ?

Happy New Year !

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Yep - they really are that variable! The difference in underpart patterning too - it's a really variable species. Perhaps the colours are subtly different depending on where they breed, and it's clinal.

Cuckoos - great! Though if they are Oriental/Himalayan types, don't bother, not possible away from the hand.

James

James Eaton said:

Yep - they really are that variable! The difference in underpart patterning too - it's a really variable species. Perhaps the colours are subtly different depending on where they breed, and it's clinal.

Cuckoos - great! Though if they are Oriental/Himalayan types, don't bother, not possible away from the hand.

James

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Thanks for that. I'm aware about that two undistinguishable cuckoos ; no the ones I have might be easy for you. I've some from Mindanao and other from Sumatra. I lack so much experience on Asian cuckoos that I don't know where to start !

James Eaton said:

1,2 and 4 just Asian Brown Flycatchers for me.

Andy - 1 lacks prominent streaks and the coverts can be seen to be tipped white (not buff). Ideally to confirm we want a rear shot showing the upperpart, and particularly rump, colour.

3 - Dark-sided Flycatcher. Note prominent moustachial, collar, extensively streaking, and also you can see a dark streak on the vent.

James

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Hmm,
thanks James, think I'll just rip that page out.....

I thought bill colurs were relatively reliable, seems not then?

andyadcock said:

Hmm,
thanks James, think I'll just rip that page out.....

I thought bill colurs were relatively reliable, seems not then?

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Certainly not a definite feature, Andy, Brown-streaked usually has a brighter lower mandible, but Asian Brown still has orange on the lower mandible, that is all. All about the upperparts and breast.

James

James Eaton said:

Certainly not a definite feature, Andy, Brown-streaked usually has a brighter lower mandible, but Asian Brown still has orange on the lower mandible, that is all. All about the upperparts and breast.

James

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The bill on the third bird looks bang on for the illustration in your book, definitely yellow rather than orangey to my eye?

I know these are little gits to ID and I've never convinced myself of having seen Dark-sided even, not haviing carried a camera when I was there.

andyadcock said:

The bill on the third bird looks bang on for the illustration in your book, definitely yellow rather than orangey to my eye?

I know these are little gits to ID and I've never convinced myself of having seen Dark-sided even, not haviing carried a camera when I was there.

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Brown-streaked Flycatcher is considered as a sub-species of Asian Brown in HBA Alive, and, although I've not yet seen it, I guess they must have similar shape. Shape of Dark-sided Flycatcher is strikingly shorter, rounder, looking compact as I noticed yesterday (it was a lifer). Can be difficult on a photo (I misjudge the photo 4) but in the field, it is obvious.

I hope to see Brown-streaked soon, as I go to Malaisia after here, and visualize that better and be more confident for the next IDs.

andyadcock said:

The bill on the third bird looks bang on for the illustration in your book, definitely yellow rather than orangey to my eye?

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But what does the text says? The text is the important element to identification in any field guide.

Illustrations not my problem, gov.

James

Valéry Schollaert said:

Brown-streaked Flycatcher is considered as a sub-species of Asian Brown in HBA Alive, and, although I've not yet seen it, I guess they must have similar shape. Shape of Dark-sided Flycatcher is strikingly shorter, rounder, looking compact as I noticed yesterday (it was a lifer). Can be difficult on a photo (I misjudge the photo 4) but in the field, it is obvious.

I hope to see Brown-streaked soon, as I go to Malaisia after here, and visualize that better and be more confident for the next IDs.

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williamsoni is the same shape and size as Asian Brown. The undescribed 'Umber' however is a different shape (tail length, wing proportions). I doubt you will see them in Malaysia at this time of year - they likely winter in Sumatra and breed in Northern Malaysia (up into Thailand, where they are replaced by 'siamensis'). I've only seen it once in 13 years in Malaysia, tough bird!

James

James Eaton said:

williamsoni is the same shape and size as Asian Brown. The undescribed 'Umber' however is a different shape (tail length, wing proportions). I doubt you will see them in Malaysia at this time of year - they likely winter in Sumatra and breed in Northern Malaysia (up into Thailand, where they are replaced by 'siamensis'). I've only seen it once in 13 years in Malaysia, tough bird!

James

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I didn't know it was that rare ! I'll survive if I miss it

Valery, there is a very nice study of williamsoni by Dave Bakewell in Kedah https://digdeep1962.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/brown-streaked-flycatchers-kuala-ketil-kedah-26-april-2013/ including a link below in the comments to Ayuwat's images of siamensis in Thailand for comparison. And an apparently different taxon from Perdik https://digdeep1962.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/muscicapa-mystery-what-are-the-perdik-flycatchers/ James, was the ID of these birds ever resolved?


Grahame

Grahame Walbridge said:

Valery, there is a very nice study of williamsoni by Dave Bakewell in Kedah https://digdeep1962.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/brown-streaked-flycatchers-kuala-ketil-kedah-26-april-2013/ including a link below in the comments to Ayuwat's images of siamensis in Thailand for comparison. And an apparently different taxon from Perdik https://digdeep1962.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/muscicapa-mystery-what-are-the-perdik-flycatchers/ James, was the ID of these birds ever resolved?
Grahame

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Great, thanks for that. Now I see my confusion : many of the Brown-streaked F, we find on Google Images are actually Asian Brown. On those photos, I see that williamsoni is actually very different from both Asian Brown and Dark-sided. I will read deeper later, thanks again.

Grahame Walbridge said:

Valery, there is a very nice study of williamsoni by Dave Bakewell in Kedah https://digdeep1962.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/brown-streaked-flycatchers-kuala-ketil-kedah-26-april-2013/ including a link below in the comments to Ayuwat's images of siamensis in Thailand for comparison. And an apparently different taxon from Perdik https://digdeep1962.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/muscicapa-mystery-what-are-the-perdik-flycatchers/ James, was the ID of these birds ever resolved?
Grahame

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Hi Grahame,

The 'Perdik' flycatchers we believe are the same as umbrosa - a taxon described from Sabah, which has been recorded from a handful of sites in Sabah and Sarawak. The plumage and proportions appear to be the same as these. We erroneously lumped them with williamsoni in an earlier paper: https://orientalbirdclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Muscicapa-dauurica-umbrosa.pdf before realising just how distinct it really was once we had better views (which then moved on to Dave's great blog article you link to). In the Birds of the Indonesian Archipelago, we split umbrosa as 'Umber Flycatcher', which included the Perdik birds.

There is a genetics paper in the pipeline, hopefully published this year which shows the true relationships of all these, and it will make fascinating reading.

James

James Eaton said:

Hi Grahame,

The 'Perdik' flycatchers we believe are the same as umbrosa - a taxon described from Sabah, which has been recorded from a handful of sites in Sabah and Sarawak. The plumage and proportions appear to be the same as these. We erroneously lumped them with williamsoni in an earlier paper: https://orientalbirdclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Muscicapa-dauurica-umbrosa.pdf before realising just how distinct it really was once we had better views (which then moved on to Dave's great blog article you link to). In the Birds of the Indonesian Archipelago, we split umbrosa as 'Umber Flycatcher', which included the Perdik birds.

There is a genetics paper in the pipeline, hopefully published this year which shows the true relationships of all these, and it will make fascinating reading.

James

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Now I understand you are an author of that book. I've not yet bought it, as I didn't expect at all to visit Indonesia, it is a very last minute decision. I have Philippines and Malaysia books only. I had some problems in the Philippines and had to leave earlier than expected, but once back home I will order your book, it looks great. Next time, I'll be better prepared...

I've been birding 31 years, but only 3 years in Asia, still learning much. Your help is invaluable.

I will probably have more ID requests, I'm struggling with swiftlets and even some swifts.

Cheers B

In central Japan near Osaka where I am, we have Asian Brown breeding, and Dark-sided as a migration bird.

I offer just a few cents of thoughts on the original photos.

Firstly, my experience is that Asian Brown Flycatcher looks grey most of the time, but when in full light then the same individual can look completely brown. Photos one and two are the same individual a few seconds apart.

The chest can be very white or quite grey, but (usually or always, I'm not sure) it is a 'wash' not clear streaks (as in Grey-streaked) or smudged streaks (as in Dark-sided).

(In my years on Bird Forum, I have seen threads where birds were ID'd as Dark-sided, when they would definitely have been ID'd as dark Asian Brown where I am (indeed some were not even all that dark), but I lacked the confidence or experience of variation within the species to join in the threads.)

One ID feature that no-one seems to have mentioned in this thread so far is the malar stripe. If you can see a clear (distinct) whiteish malar stripe - as you can in Valéry's photos 1, 2 and 4, then it's Asian Brown. Of course, depending on the photos, you often can't see this feature.

Another ID feature for Asian Brown is that the bill seems (or is; I'm not sure whether it's actually so, or a visual artefact of the bill colour) significantly wider at the base than Dark-sided, And in addition, though the base of the bill is (or at least sometimes is) yellow in Dark-sided, in a decent light, the lower mandible of Asian Brown is yellow/orange for about 2/3 of its length, and 3/4 or more of its area.

I have posted a modification of one of Valéry's photos to highlight these two features.

I find Valéry's photo 3 intriguing. It does indeed look like Dark-sided - but it's brown! I can see on HBW Alive that there appears to be a ssp of Asian Brown called Brown-streaked, but although I've never seen this, I think this is not 'Brown-streaked'.

The clear Dark-sided birds where I am are strong charcoal grey, sometimes almost black, as in the other photo I attach (where I think you can also see what I indicated earlier by 'smudged streaks', the lack of a malar stripe, and the small amount of yellow at the base of the lower mandible). Is this a first-year colouration on Valéry's bird?

MacNara, I think you may have some of your terminology mixed. You refer to a pale malar stripe on Asian Brown, but the malar stripe is typically dark and is more of a feature of Dark-sided. The feature you highlighted on your annotated version of Valery's photo is actually the loral stripe, which is often white on Asian Brown as you mention.

Photo 3 is definitely Dark-sided, for the reasons listed by James earlier. The colour may be influenced by the lighting or photograph. There are also a couple of subspecies to consider here - I'd be inclined to think this is the northern migratory taxon (sibirica) based on the limited extent of dark in the underparts, but I'm not too familiar with the more southerly taxa that might be involved.

johnallcock said:

MacNara, I think you may have some of your terminology mixed. You refer to a pale malar stripe on Asian Brown, but the malar stripe is typically dark and is more of a feature of Dark-sided. The feature you highlighted on your annotated version of Valery's photo is actually the loral stripe, which is often white on Asian Brown as you mention.

Photo 3 is definitely Dark-sided, for the reasons listed by James earlier. The colour may be influenced by the lighting or photograph. There are also a couple of subspecies to consider here - I'd be inclined to think this is the northern migratory taxon (sibirica) based on the limited extent of dark in the underparts, but I'm not too familiar with the more southerly taxa that might be involved.

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Yes, you're right of course about malar and loral; I'm still in a New Year fuddle here. As for the Dark-sided Bird, my point was that whereas Asian Brown can often look very brown or very grey, I've never seen this variation with Dark-sided, although the Photo 3 bird is clearly not Asian Brown. I wondered if it might be juvenile because there also seems to be a remnant of the juvenile (feeding) gape in the photo - or am I just looking at it wrongly?

But just for fun, I tried both of these in Google which brings up the relevant Wikipedia entry for the terms. Searching for 'Loral Stripe' brings up the article for 'Supercilium', and searching for 'Malar Stripe' brings up the article for 'Cheek'.