Gull ID (1 Viewer)

Could this be caspian gull, underwing shot included

This looks like a hybrid Caspian x Herring Gull to me.

Not a great pic and can't make out tertial pattern through the vegetation but to me looks pretty good for a 2w casp, you could say the scaps look a bit messy and its maybe a bit dirty below which could point to mixed genes i guess.... but white underwing with long tongues eating into black and p10 mirror is good for cach...

I feel the combination of extensive white fringing to the tertials, messy scaps with no clean adult type feathers, lots white in the coverts, messy underparts, bulky structure and shortish primary projection indicate Herring genes for me.

However I do see more Casp then Herring in this bird and I guess it could be a less typical pure Caspian Gull instead of a hybrid.

Hi all,
First off, are the two images certainly of the same individual? I ask because, even allowing for many 2nd-winter Caspian Gulls showing pale mirrors of varying prominence on P10, I'd not expect even a very well-marked bird to have such an obvious pale mirror visible on P10 from below, and, also, pale 'tongues' on some of the other primaries wouldn't be a feature of a bird of that age, being something one might expect on older birds.
I admit I am struggling to see any signs of Caspian Gull influence in this bird: structure, scapular pattern, covert pattern, the pattern on the tertials and the general 'dirtiness' below all suggest Herring Gull to me. I could be wrong, of course, and admit that my experience of Caspian Gull and likely hybrids is limited compared to anyone living within the regular range of the species, but I feel confident enough in saying that it surely can't be a pure Caspian Gull anyway.
Regards,
Harry

Hi all, The problem with young Caspians is, like all other large gulls that they can show considerable variation....its a fine line deciding when a bird looks so atypical that the hybrid theory comes into play. This bird is certainly no classic but i have seen 2w casps looking not a million miles away from this bird. Infact the recent 2w in Limerick also shows a rather messy looking mixture of scaps and has lots of white on its second gen tertials. The head and bill shape and position of the eye on the bird in the OP look very caspish to me, as does the white head contrasting with neck shawl? and i believe the underwing shot IS of the same bird, the mirror just looks bigger as its slightly out of focus?
Guess we'll never know for sure unless other photos come to light......always find it interesting how different people interpret the same photos, all very subjective....
Regards
Dean

Sorry for late reply, yeh the same bird in both photos, the reason for the post was that as i observed the bird in the field i was swayed to both species. A mate of mine, top gull man has looked at pics and concludes herrring gull which is good enough for me, cheers for comments

Couple more pics