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Passerines, Panama

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Old Monday 3rd February 2020, 20:38   #1
michalb
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Passerines, Panama

Ok, so here's probably the last batch of questions from this winter's Central American trip.

First bird is just for confirmation, as I'm pretty convinced that it's a Great Crested Flycatcher (Myiarchus crinitus). Is it right?
Location: rainforest edge near Wizard Beach, Bastimentos Island, Bocas del Toro islands in north-western Panama
Date: 15.01.2020

The bird in the other two photos is probably a wood-warbler, but which one? I can't find any which is so featureless. Or maybe it's something else?
Location: rainforest above Old Bank Town, Bastimentos Island, Bocas del Toro islands in north-western Panama
Date: 15.01.2020

Thanks for any help!
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Old Monday 3rd February 2020, 20:44   #2
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I can't help with the myiarchus but your warbler is a 1w/f type Yellow warbler
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Old Monday 3rd February 2020, 20:58   #3
michalb
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Thanks Daniel!

Anyone to confirm (or not) the flycatcher?
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Old Monday 3rd February 2020, 21:41   #4
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Great Crested feels good
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Old Monday 3rd February 2020, 22:19   #5
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Great Crested feels good
That is what I thought too.
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Old Monday 3rd February 2020, 23:06   #6
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The yellow warbler could be either migratory northern form or local “mangrove warbler “, I am not sure
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Old Tuesday 4th February 2020, 20:24   #7
michalb
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Thanks guys!

Niels, I think both are possible in this time and place and it seems immature females are rather difficult to separate. Anyway, "mangrove warbler" and "regular yellow" from the north aren't even subspecies, right?
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Old Tuesday 4th February 2020, 23:36   #8
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Thanks guys!

Niels, I think both are possible in this time and place and it seems immature females are rather difficult to separate. Anyway, "mangrove warbler" and "regular yellow" from the north aren't even subspecies, right?
They are full species according to IOC, and subspecies groups according to Clements

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Old Wednesday 5th February 2020, 13:09   #9
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They are full species according to IOC, and subspecies groups according to Clements

Niels
And the situation is really quite complex, with some phenotypes not matching up with genetic divisions - particularly, some insular "Mangrove" warblers look remarkably like migratory northern breeding "Yellow" warblers. There is a fair argument for splitting out the migratory birds, though field identification isn't always as straightforward as one might like. The various resident populations (ie, "Mangrove" warblers) are quite complex phenotypically / genetically.

If anyone cares for more reading, the (failed) 2018 proposal to NACC to split out the migrant birds is quite informative as to the current understanding of everything:

http://checklist.aou.org/assets/prop...PDF/2018-C.pdf

Committee members' comments can be read here:

http://checklist.aou.org/nacc/propos....html#2018-C-2

Cheers,
Josh
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Old Wednesday 5th February 2020, 13:43   #10
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And the situation is really quite complex, with some phenotypes not matching up with genetic divisions - particularly, some insular "Mangrove" warblers look remarkably like migratory northern breeding "Yellow" warblers. There is a fair argument for splitting out the migratory birds, though field identification isn't always as straightforward as one might like. The various resident populations (ie, "Mangrove" warblers) are quite complex phenotypically / genetically.

If anyone cares for more reading, the (failed) 2018 proposal to NACC to split out the migrant birds is quite informative as to the current understanding of everything:

http://checklist.aou.org/assets/prop...PDF/2018-C.pdf

Committee members' comments can be read here:

http://checklist.aou.org/nacc/propos....html#2018-C-2

Cheers,
Josh
I thought 'Mangrove' Warbler were named after their preffered habitat and were restricted to the coast for that reason?
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Old Wednesday 5th February 2020, 15:59   #11
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I thought 'Mangrove' Warbler were named after their preffered habitat and were restricted to the coast for that reason?
Flippant reply: but if we can't tell them apart, how do we know they're restricted to mangroves?
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Old Thursday 6th February 2020, 08:40   #12
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Flippant reply: but if we can't tell them apart, how do we know they're restricted to mangroves?
You would have a fair idea in the breeding season when Mangrove Warblers are on territory and Yellow Warblers are up north.

You can also consider how many sightings of adult male Mangrove Warblers there are away from their preferred habitat at any time of year.

Of course, wandering immature Mangrove Warblers could remain undetected. And Yellow Warblers wintering in mangroves are a very real possibility, even though most of them will be chased off by territorial Mangrove Warblers.
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Old Thursday 6th February 2020, 09:21   #13
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You would have a fair idea in the breeding season when Mangrove Warblers are on territory and Yellow Warblers are up north.

You can also consider how many sightings of adult male Mangrove Warblers there are away from their preferred habitat at any time of year.

Of course, wandering immature Mangrove Warblers could remain undetected. And Yellow Warblers wintering in mangroves are a very real possibility, even though most of them will be chased off by territorial Mangrove Warblers.
So the important time is clearly winter when both are in the same country. I don't know about the territoriality of this/these species, but wonder how territorial they are likely to be at this time of year. In other words, unless there are unusual circumstances, I'm not sure you can confidently ID them in winter (unless there are ringing studies, I'm not clear we even know that residents stay in the mangroves then... You can't assume that a species which breeds in one habitat spends the winter there)

[Edit: a scan read of the SACC proposal put me in mind of the big white-headed gulls of n. hemisphere where I get the impression (from v superficial reading) that the DNA evidence is pretty poor, there's extensive hybridisation etc etc but now Caspian and others are accepted species. I keep saying that taxonomy will never be anything other than subjective and we should make our own informed decisions about what we believe]

Last edited by THE_FERN : Thursday 6th February 2020 at 09:32.
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Old Thursday 6th February 2020, 12:10   #14
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Just be satisfied with identifying the nice adult males.
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