Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Buzzard Id Portugal

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Wednesday 27th June 2012, 22:54   #1
Rui_Caratão
Registered User
 
Rui_Caratão's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 256
Buzzard Id Portugal

I wonder if anyone would like to give an opinion regarding this Buzzard ID in the South of Portugal
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC04515.resize.jpg
Views:	214
Size:	133.6 KB
ID:	392250  Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC04518.resize.jpg
Views:	212
Size:	142.1 KB
ID:	392251  Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC05206.resize.jpg
Views:	242
Size:	167.3 KB
ID:	392252  
__________________
Best regards,
Rui
Rui_Caratão is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 27th June 2012, 23:43   #2
KenM
Registered User
 
KenM's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 11,732
Presumably your wondering whether the pale area at the base of the primaries (upperwing) is suggestive of Long-legged ?....... does look as though it could be a candidate?

cheers
KenM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 28th June 2012, 00:39   #3
Rui_Caratão
Registered User
 
Rui_Caratão's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 256
Not really, but what about steppe buzzards. I must say this is a breeding bird with one chick raised. Can Steppe Buzzards be safelly identified in the west if a rufous morph is also present in the nominate race?
__________________
Best regards,
Rui
Rui_Caratão is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 29th June 2012, 17:58   #4
HH75
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cork,Ireland
Posts: 4,380
Hi there,
Well, such features as the pale area on the underwing greater coverts would appear to exclude even cirtensis Long-legged Buzzard, which looks a lot more like Common Buzzard than nominate rufinus does, but, given information that Long-legged and Common have hybridised in Iberia, there would have to be a question asked as to whether or not a bird such as the subject bird is just due to variation within buteo, or if this bird has some Long-legged genes...?
I could easily buy this being a Common Buzzard, given the variability of the species, though I do acknowledge its similarity to some colour morphs of "Steppe Buzzard". It's not as rufous as a "fox red" morph vulpinus, mind.
Regards,
Harry
HH75 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 30th June 2012, 19:48   #5
Rui_Caratão
Registered User
 
Rui_Caratão's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Hussey
Well, such features as the pale area on the underwing greater coverts would appear to exclude even cirtensis Long-legged Buzzard, which looks a lot more like Common Buzzard than nominate rufinus does
The same pale area on underwing GC is present on this bird at Vejer de la Frontera http://www.surfbirds.com/media/galle...0223103710.jpg and another one in Cadiz http://www.surfbirds.com/media/galle...1011121140.JPG
I havent seen those claimed hybrids from Spain or any photos of them, but 3 or 4 years had gone since the news were released!! I would expect more information regarding their ID.

Photos from a 2nd bird attached with strong features of adult cirtensis, so LLB genes are a really good question.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC05160.resize.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	142.0 KB
ID:	392688  
__________________
Best regards,
Rui
Rui_Caratão is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 30th June 2012, 22:02   #6
tconzemi
Tom
BF Supporter 2020
 
tconzemi's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 5,417
Honnestly I have some major problems to follow here
Cirtensis and buteo are sometimes really diificult to separate given the enormous variability of buteo and now we are starting to see hybrids everywere!?
To me these birds are buteo and I would not even try to rule out hybrids as these birds must be unidentifiable in the field
__________________
Tom
tconzemi is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 30th June 2012, 22:29   #7
Rui_Caratão
Registered User
 
Rui_Caratão's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 256
I must remenber that your everywhere, Tom !!! is only the South of Portugal, the South and center of Spain, and the South of Italy.
__________________
Best regards,
Rui
Rui_Caratão is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 30th June 2012, 23:01   #8
Simon Wates
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Algarve, Portugal
Posts: 6,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Hussey View Post
Well, such features as the pale area on the underwing greater coverts would appear to exclude even cirtensis Long-legged Buzzard, Harry
Is this a sure-fire ID feature? I cannot see why it isn't a cirtensis Long-legged Buzzard. Some very recent survey work in the Portuguese Baixo Alentejo stepplands led by Luis Palma have "preliminarily" revealed close to 30 individuals of cirtensis inc. a few probable hybrids - and quote;. "breeding has apparently occurred". I think Andrea Corso has been helping out from a distance too. It seems that birds have either been overlooked or its a very recent phenomenon - or both! Seems like they are attracted to the large inland steppic areas in southern Iberia - but also seen at migration watchpoints in the south.

This species pair can be horrible to diagnose - and the few sightings I have had recently in the Baixo Alentejo haven't been close or complete enough - or have been of contentious individuals. I have seen some that I thought if I saw in Morocco I wouldn't think twice too! The eagle like structure of Long-legged is a great indicator when plumage cannot be seen properly - but in cirtensis this is more subtle and not always clear. Rui's first photo shows the structure of a Long-legged to me - unless I'm misjudging it ,)

Last edited by Simon Wates : Saturday 30th June 2012 at 23:04.
Simon Wates is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 30th June 2012, 23:59   #9
Rui_Caratão
Registered User
 
Rui_Caratão's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 256
Hi Simon, this 2nd bird is a rufous morph by Andrea Corso kind comments, and raised also one chick, together with an odd "common" Buzzard.
I have been in the area not as long as Luis Palma but at least 15 different immature birds are present in the area by my counts, they have been overlooked as you know, but they are also very hard to see and hard to approach, the aerea has an allmost daily use by birdwatchers, and still, no reports on them....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wates
Rui's first photo shows the structure of a Long-legged to me - unless I'm misjudging it ,)
That´s why I have asked for an opinion on Birdforum, not all birders, including the ones who have seen the bird on the field, agree on the ID. I´m somewhere in the middle, at least for the first bird, that shows an obvious patch on the breast like in nominate buteo or vulpinus.
Most of the birds present on the south of Portugal are mostly immatures on their 2 cy, with totally different jizz, and much more eagle like impression with longer tails, and with a slimmer wing effect, than these supposed adult breeders.
Although their breast and head pattern is highly variable, some like the bird on the other post seen in Spain, other with pale creamy heads with dark eye line, but all share, the long head impression with a small triangle on the nape and rectangular angle of the head on that area, dark trousers, orange tinge on belly, long tarsi etc etc.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC05148.resize.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	157.8 KB
ID:	392717  Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC05150.resize.jpg
Views:	47
Size:	116.7 KB
ID:	392718  Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC05163.resize.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	208.3 KB
ID:	392719  Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC04967.resize.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	116.9 KB
ID:	392721  
__________________
Best regards,
Rui

Last edited by Rui_Caratão : Sunday 1st July 2012 at 01:52.
Rui_Caratão is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st July 2012, 10:23   #10
Rui_Caratão
Registered User
 
Rui_Caratão's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tconzemi
Honnestly I have some major problems to follow here
Cirtensis and buteo are sometimes really diificult to separate given the enormous variability of buteo and now we are starting to see hybrids everywere!?
To me these birds are buteo and I would not even try to rule out hybrids as these birds must be unidentifiable in the field
I agree with you Tom, the enormous variability of buteo is major problem on cirtensis identification, but what about cirtensis variability? what do we now about that. But your objective opinion, as from others is most welcomed!!
Probably its not possible to separate some morphs in the field, some eaven suggest they are the same, like Valéry and others based on DNA, although, I can say based on my still very fresh experience with this birds, that behaviour is diferent at least in Baixo Alentejo.

Its like comparing ground squirrels with tree squirrels, cirtensis love to be on the ground, and no more than 1 and 1/2 mt above it 95% of the time, eaven when they have tree tops, telephone posts, et etc.

Feeding behaviour http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFnRN78Eduo

Bird number 3 is from a 2 cy bird, on a very rare moment a few meters above the ground, and bird number 4 is from a recently fledged chick, I only have seen the mother wich seemed very common Buzzard to me. However there is something on the chick/juvenile jizz, mainly head and neck, that I am not able to fit it in buteo, so I really would like an opinion from others!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P1050168.1resize.jpg
Views:	46
Size:	321.4 KB
ID:	392732  Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC05606.resize.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	165.5 KB
ID:	392733  
__________________
Best regards,
Rui
Rui_Caratão is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 1st July 2012, 11:29   #11
tconzemi
Tom
BF Supporter 2020
 
tconzemi's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 5,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rui_Caratão View Post
I agree with you Tom, the enormous variability of buteo is major problem on cirtensis identification, but what about cirtensis variability?
However there is something on the chick/juvenile jizz, mainly head and neck, that I am not able to fit it in buteo, so I really would like an opinion from others!
Hi Rui
the whole story is most interesting, let me just add a few comments:

imho it's simply impossible to judge jizz on single photographs, so your personal impression in the field is much more important than comments here on BF, this obviously including behavior

CB is most common BOP in Luxembourg but again they look simply different because of colder climate and less wear of plumage due to sun (especially this summer!)

It would be most interesting to compare populations in Southern Iberia and Northern Iberia and to look for several key features in both populations, surely more interesting than debating individuals.

A paper on variability of cirtensis is more than overdue, Andrea is talking about this for years...

and a last interesting fact on cirtensis "migration". In our wild bird rehabilitation center in Luxembourg we get over hundred Buzzards a year (more than 1000 animals a year) and the last 15 years or so we got 3 cirtensis! 1 baby bird brought from Algeria by an immigrant family returning from their summer visit to Algeria, two recently fledged birds found in Nature in very, very bad feather conditions and IDed only after their first moult. So 3 birds brought from Northern Africa in ten years to such a small spot as Luxembourg and surroundings. There must be hundreds of smuggled birds to Iberia.
__________________
Tom

Last edited by tconzemi : Sunday 1st July 2012 at 12:53.
tconzemi is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 2nd July 2012, 13:21   #12
Rui_Caratão
Registered User
 
Rui_Caratão's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by tconzemi
It would be most interesting to compare populations in Southern Iberia and Northern Iberia and to look for several key features in both populations, surely more interesting than debating individuals.
Agreed but we should also add the North of Morocco...
https://plus.google.com/photos/11106...37645654462913

https://plus.google.com/photos/11583...88215583517121
__________________
Best regards,
Rui
Rui_Caratão is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Common Buzzard or Long-legged Buzzard? (Crimea, Ukraine) khustochka Bird Identification Q&A 7 Wednesday 13th June 2012 12:17
Golden Eagle or Long leeged buzzard Portugal Coati Bird Identification Q&A 2 Friday 25th May 2012 08:56
Common buzzard and Rough-legged buzzard? - Norfolk, UK paulrowe Bird Identification Q&A 3 Sunday 8th January 2012 10:36
Buzzard or Rough-legged Buzzard, Yorkshire Wolds Wold Ranger Bird Identification Q&A 5 Tuesday 29th November 2011 14:00
Rough-legged Buzzard or Common Buzzard, Stockholm, Sweden? Anovek Bird Identification Q&A 2 Wednesday 9th March 2011 12:52



Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.25701904 seconds with 24 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 03:19.