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BOU TSC disbanded

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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 11:46   #1
StevePreddy
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BOU TSC disbanded

http://www.bou.org.uk/about-the-bou/recent_news/

Completely out of the blue.
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 12:10   #2
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Wow, I hadn't anticipated that!

But, as suggested, it has made little sense for four mainstream world checklists, AERC TAC, and its five member taxonomic committees to each maintain independent taxonomic baselines...
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 12:48   #3
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It is astonishing, especially because we weren't consulted. The decision was made behind our backs while our only BOU Council representative was on holiday and thus could not attend the BOU Council meeting. They even 'forgot' to send the minutes to our representative. We found out weeks later.

The BOU's decision even lacks coherent logic: Because the European Taxonomic groups cannot agree a unified structure, we are scrapping our committee!

Sure, having multiple taxonomic committees in Europe is not practical but it may be healthy. Taxonomy is an empirical science. Therefore, taxonomic freedom is important. If one committee has good reasons to recognize three species, while another recognizes only two (e.g. Sylvia cantillans), that may well reflect a fundamental aspect of science: different scientists interpret the evidence in different ways. By publishing those views, we and others can (re)evaluate the various arguments and evidence. Artificial uniformity may be welcomed by non-scientists but it is not a healthy thing from a scientific point of view.
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 12:55   #4
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Originally Posted by George Sangster View Post
It is astonishing, especially because we weren't consulted. The decision was made behind our backs while our only BOU Council representative was on holiday and thus could not attend the BOU Council meeting. They even 'forgot' to send the minutes to our representative. We found out weeks later.

The BOU's decision even lacks coherent logic: Because the European Taxonomic groups cannot agree a unified structure, we are scrapping our committee!
That's not good! I (wrongly) assumed that this was a decision made in consultation with the TSC...
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 13:03   #5
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Perhaps BOU-TSC going beyond its logical remit, was relevant. Eg

"Newly recognized species

The status of species on the British List is indicated by their category (e.g. Category A).

Ostrich Struthio camelus to be treated as two species:
• Common Ostrich Struthio camelus (recorded in the Western Palearctic)
• Somali Ostrich Struthio molybdophanes (extralimital)"

Always seemed bonkers to me for BOU-TSC to pronounce on that.

cheers, alan
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 13:12   #6
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No, this had nothing to do with BOU scrapping its TSC.

Ostrich is a WP species, so within our remit. In fact, many felt that the original scope (Great Britain) was too narrow. We have been asked repeatedly by other ornithologists to address taxa not on the British or even European lists.

Last edited by George Sangster : Friday 6th November 2015 at 13:16.
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 13:29   #7
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Just for fun, let's play a game of "How many members of BOU council would you recognise in the street?". For me, I think it's just the one who wasn't at the meeting. My serious point is of course that there is an accountability failing here. TSC served a far wider constituency than just the BOU, yet there is no mechanism for that constituency to influence decisions like this.

Maybe this is a blessing in disguise. If the current TSC members were to form a Western Palearctic taxonomic committee independent of any parent body, this would be the obvious 'authority' for BOU (and anyone else) to use for Western Palearctic species, unless of course factors other than scientific credibility come into play.

Last edited by StevePreddy : Friday 6th November 2015 at 15:31. Reason: +url
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 13:31   #8
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This seems really rather stupid. Of course there will be differences in opinion on taxonomy; that's because taxonomic opinions are always subjective to some degree.

While the BOU doesn't actually inform my birding a whole lot to the extent it might you folks, BOU IS one of only a very small number of well respected taxonomic authorities that regularly updates their checklist, and has a highly visible process. From what I recall, AERC doesn't regularly update nor are there updates quite as reader friendly as other folks. Loss of BOU is definitely going to impair the operation of other checklists.
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 16:38   #9
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Originally Posted by Mysticete View Post
BOU IS one of only a very small number of well respected taxonomic authorities that regularly updates their checklist, and has a highly visible process.
Czech Rarities Committee (Checklist of birds of the Czech republic) follows BOURC taxonomy.
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 17:21   #10
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Just for fun, let's play a game of "How many members of BOU council would you recognise in the street?". For me, I think it's just the one who wasn't at the meeting. My serious point is of course that there is an accountability failing here. TSC served a far wider constituency than just the BOU, yet there is no mechanism for that constituency to influence decisions like this.

Maybe this is a blessing in disguise. If the current TSC members were to form a Western Palearctic taxonomic committee independent of any parent body, this would be the obvious 'authority' for BOU (and anyone else) to use for Western Palearctic species, unless of course factors other than scientific credibility come into play.
I recognise one. We used to be in the same YOC group. Do I get a point now?
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 17:38   #11
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Fwiw, here's a summary of species-level taxonomic differences between BOURC, IOC and eBird/Clements that directly affect species on the British List:
  • Tundra Bean Goose Anser (fabalis) serrirostris - IC
  • Green-winged Teal Anas (crecca) carolinensis - BI
  • White-winged Scoter Melanitta (fusca) deglandi - BI
  • Desertas Petrel Pterodroma (feae) deserta - I
  • Cory's Shearwater Calonectris (diomedea) borealis - BI
  • Northern Harrier Circus (cyaneus) hudsonius - I
  • Hudsonian Whimbrel Numenius (phaeopus) hudsonicus - B
  • Least Tern Sternula (albifrons) antillarum - IC
  • Cabot's Tern Thalasseus (sandvicensis) acuflavidus - BI
  • American Herring Gull Larus (argentatus) smithsonianus - BI
  • Thayer's Gull Larus (glaucoides) thayeri - IC
  • Red-tailed Shrike Lanius (isabellinus) phoenicuroides - IC
  • Steppe Grey Shrike Lanius (meridionalis) pallidirostris - I
  • Two-barred Warbler Phylloscopus (trochiloides) plumbeitarsus - IC
  • White's Thrush Zoothera (dauma) aurea - IC
  • Stejneger's Stonechat Saxicola (maurus) stejnegeri - I
  • Eastern Yellow Wagtail Motacilla (flava) tschutschensis - IC
  • Lesser Redpoll Acanthis (flammea) cabaret - BC
  • American Yellow Warbler Setophaga (petechia) aestiva - I
(Adopting IOC taxonomy would add 8 spp and remove 3 spp from the British List; whilst adopting eBird/Clements would add 6 spp and remove 6 spp.)

Please report any errors or omissions...

PS. H&M4 would add 5 spp and remove 8 spp.

Last edited by Richard Klim : Saturday 7th November 2015 at 12:22. Reason: Cabot's Tern, Yellow Warbler.
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 18:02   #12
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Thanks for that info Richard, useful to see. As a novice here I expect there is another significant practical ramification looming in that the taxonomic orders differ between each of these, thus we will likely have yet another re-ordering? Not sure how much these vary though without delving into the details.

As an incidental comment, as a bird recorder I can do most of my work using EURING sequencing but the now myriad orders in books and reports has a significant negative impact on ability to find the stuff you need - yes I know there might be an index, but still it is a real nuisance and must have an even bigger impact by confusing newcomers...
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 18:33   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Fwiw, here's a summary of species-level taxonomic differences between BOURC, IOC and eBird/Clements that directly affect species on the British List:
  • Tundra Bean Goose Anser (fabalis) serrirostris - IC
  • Green-winged Teal Anas (crecca) carolinensis - BI
  • White-winged Scoter Melanitta (fusca) deglandi - BI
  • Desertas Petrel Pterodroma (feae) deserta - I
  • Cory's Shearwater Calonectris (diomedea) borealis - BI
  • Northern Harrier Circus (cyaneus) hudsonius - I
  • Hudsonian Whimbrel Numenius (phaeopus) hudsonicus - B
  • Least Tern Sternula (albifrons) antillarum - IC
  • American Herring Gull Larus (argentatus) smithonianus - BI
  • Thayer's Gull Larus (glaucoides) thayeri - IC
  • Red-tailed Shrike Lanius (isabellinus) phoenicuroides - IC
  • Steppe Grey Shrike Lanius (meridionalis) pallidirostris - I
  • Two-barred Warbler Phylloscopus (trochiloides) plumbeitarsus - IC
  • White's Thrush Zoothera (dauma) aurea - IC
  • Stejneger's Stonechat Saxicola (maurus) stejnegeri - I
  • Eastern Yellow Wagtail Motacilla (flava) tschutschensis - IC
  • Lesser Redpoll Acanthis (flammea) cabaret - BC
Please report any errors or omissions...
Hello Richard
I know the following does not affect the British List...If say either Clements or IOC is adopted the number of Macaronesian Shearwaters in the totals seen in Britain is going to be decimated.
Incidentally I'm making HBW/Birdlife International taxonomy
as favourite to be adopted.I hope I'm wrong!
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 18:38   #14
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I recognise one. We used to be in the same YOC group. Do I get a point now?
Yes, you do. Only another six and Birdlife International will declare you a full species.
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 19:16   #15
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Yes, you do. Only another six and Birdlife International will declare you a full species.
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 19:48   #16
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Yes, you do. Only another six and Birdlife International will declare you a full species.
Zinger!
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 20:26   #17
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Two more members of the old BOU TSC viewing this thread than were present at the meeting at which they were disbanded...... Only one would recognise me though!

This seems a really daft decision.

All the best
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Old Friday 6th November 2015, 21:28   #18
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Originally Posted by VATH 82 View Post
I know the following does not affect the British List...If say either Clements or IOC is adopted the number of Macaronesian Shearwaters in the totals seen in Britain is going to be decimated.
I'd wondered about that. As you suggest, although only baroli is on the British list, the IOC/Clements split of Boyd's Shearwater Puffinus (baroli) boydi would indeed downgrade most British records of Macaronesian Shearwater to 'species undetermined'.
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Originally Posted by VATH 82 View Post
Incidentally I'm making HBW/Birdlife International taxonomy as favourite to be adopted. I hope I'm wrong!
I hope you're wrong too! Adopting the HBW/BirdLife taxonomy (ie, Tobias criteria) would surely represent a significant departure from BOURC TSC's species concept (Helbig et al 2002). And it remains to be seen whether the HBW/BirdLife taxonomy will be continuously updated in response to new data after initial establishment of the new BirdLife baseline in 2016. But perhaps it's possible that BOU might nevertheless look favourably at BirdLife as a 'British' (and conservation-oriented) solution, however radical...?

And then there's H&M, but I suspect that the combination of rather conservative species-level taxonomy, but quite progressive taxonomy at generic and higher levels, and a still unclear plan for future updates, could count against its adoption.

Last edited by Richard Klim : Saturday 7th November 2015 at 07:25.
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Old Saturday 7th November 2015, 10:05   #19
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Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
I hope you're wrong too! Adopting the HBW/BirdLife taxonomy (ie, Tobias criteria) would surely represent a significant departure from BOURC TSC's species concept (Helbig et al 2002). And it remains to be seen whether the HBW/BirdLife taxonomy will be continuously updated in response to new data after initial establishment of the new BirdLife baseline in 2016. But perhaps it's possible that BOU might nevertheless look favourably at BirdLife as a 'British' (and conservation-oriented) solution, however radical...?
I guess that for British listers, the final choice of the BOU in the present situation will matter a lot; I'm unconvinced it is the case for non-British people. BOU apparently suddenly decided to abandon their previous role of actor in taxonomy, thus placing themselves out of the game. Unless they can convince the other European ornithological bodies to fire their TC as well (which seems unlikely), European taxonomy will most probably just continue not to be unified without them...

That being said, I feel that, if their position regarding which one of the four separate international taxonomic groups (which do not exactly seem to succeed (?) in offering a unified taxonomic model either) they intend to follow had been neutral, it would have been quite logical for them to ask the advice of the taxonomists in their own subcommittee one last time, rather than just dismiss them as was done here. This rather looks like a move aimed to discard potential dissenting voices, which in turn suggests an a-priori preference for a taxonomy that TSC members might have advised against... (Please, make this a lie.)

Incidentally, this "News" item makes some odd statements about the AERC TAC. The TAC of course doesn't exist as "five separate national taxonomic groups" trying "to reach a consensus" since 1991, but only since the early 2000s; there was no reason whatsoever to cite the year 1991 in this text, except possibly to give the feeling that the situation has been in place for a still longer time than it has. Besides, in recent years almost no effort was done by anybody (except, arguably, Pierre-André) "to reach a consensus via the Association of European Records and Rarities Committees"; the TAC mainly acted as an entity that flagged issues over which a consensus had been reached, in most cases outside of its own operation. On the other hand, it's not fully true either that the situation boils down to "national groups, each understandably feeling an obligation to retain control of the taxonomy used for their own national lists": the French CAF deliberately abandoned this control in the early years of the TAC, choosing to act only as a voting member, adopting changes on their national list only when they had been adopted by the TAC. (And, yes, this was a move towards a unified European taxonomy; I can't really see how this is the case with the disbanding of the TSC.)

Last edited by l_raty : Sunday 8th November 2015 at 06:59.
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Old Saturday 7th November 2015, 13:02   #20
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Incidentally I'm making HBW/Birdlife International taxonomy as favourite to be adopted. I hope I'm wrong!
You've got me worried now! Hopefully it's just coincidence that three months after George Sangster's strong criticism of the BirdLife/Tobias taxonomy on Dutch Birding (comment, 24 Jul 2015), BOURC TSC was abruptly disbanded at a BOU Council meeting which the TSC representative was unable to attend...
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Old Saturday 7th November 2015, 13:07   #21
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My gut says says the birdlife checklist is going to perhaps be the new taxonomy endorsed... Even though I would prefer ioc or Clements
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Old Saturday 7th November 2015, 18:58   #22
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Incidentally, this "News" item makes some odd statements about the AERC
Yes, sorry about that. The News item was posted online without TSC being consulted on the text and without any warning that it was going to be posted. We would of course have picked up any misrepresentations in the text.
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Old Saturday 7th November 2015, 19:21   #23
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Yes, sorry about that. The News item was posted online without TSC being consulted on the text and without any warning that it was going to be posted. We would of course have picked up any misrepresentations in the text.
Martin,
Any chance of the TSC being reconstituted as 'Not the TSC'? Perhaps the birding community might support a crowdfunding initiative?
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Old Sunday 8th November 2015, 09:49   #24
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PS. H&M4 would add 5 spp and remove 8 spp.
BOURC vs H&M4:
  • Green-winged Teal Anas (crecca) carolinensis - B
  • White-winged Scoter Melanitta (fusca) deglandi - B
  • Balearic Shearwater Puffinus (yelkouan) mauretanicus - B
  • Macaronesian Shearwater Puffinus (lherminieri) baroli - B
  • Hudsonian Whimbrel Numenius (phaeopus) hudsonicus - B
  • Least Tern Sternula (albifrons) antillarum - H
  • Cabot's Tern Thalasseus (sandvicensis) acuflavidus - B
  • Thayer's Gull Larus (glaucoides) thayeri - H
  • Turkestan Shrike Lanius (isabellinus) phoenicuroides - H
  • Southern Grey Shrike Lanius (excubitor) meridionalis - B
  • Hooded Crow Corvus (corone) cornix - B
  • Two-barred Leaf Warbler Seicercus (trochiloides) plumbeitarsus - H
  • Western Subalpine Warbler Curruca (cantillans) inornata - H
  • Lesser Redpoll Acanthis (flammea) cabaret - B
(Adopting H&M4 taxonomy would add 5 spp and remove 7 (not 8) spp from the British List.)

Last edited by Richard Klim : Sunday 8th November 2015 at 10:09. Reason: correction.
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Old Sunday 8th November 2015, 09:55   #25
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BOURC vs BirdLife:
  • Green-winged Teal Anas (crecca) carolinensis - B
  • Desertas Petrel Pterodroma (feae) deserta - L
  • Macaronesian Shearwater Puffinus (lherminieri) baroli - B
  • Green Heron Butorides (striata) virescens - B
  • Northern Harrier Circus (cyaneus) hudsonius - L
  • Hudsonian Whimbrel Numenius (phaeopus) hudsonicus - B
  • Least Tern Sternula (albifrons) antillarum - L
  • Cabot's Tern Thalasseus (sandvicensis) acuflavidus - B
  • Thayer's Gull Larus (glaucoides) thayeri - L
  • Southern Grey Shrike Lanius (excubitor) meridionalis - B
  • Hooded Crow Corvus (corone) cornix - B
  • Green Warbler Phylloscopus (trochiloides) nitidus - B
  • Eastern Bonelli's Warbler Phylloscopus (bonelli) orientalis - B
  • Moltoni's Subalpine Warbler Sylvia (cantillans) subalpina - B
  • Dusky Thrush Turdus (naumanni) eunomus - B
  • Black-throated Thrush Turdus (ruficollis) atrogularis - B
  • Siberian Stonechat Saxicola (torquatus) maurus - B
  • European Stonechat Saxicola (torquatus) rubicola - B
  • Lesser Redpoll Acanthis (flammea) cabaret - B
  • Arctic Redpoll Acanthis (flammea) hornemanni - B
(Adopting BirdLife taxonomy would add 3 spp and remove 14 spp from the British List.)

But of course BirdLife's passerine taxonomy is due to be extensively revised (by application of the Tobias criteria) in 2016…

Last edited by Richard Klim : Sunday 8th November 2015 at 10:56. Reason: typo!
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