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10X50 Swarovision

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Old Monday 3rd November 2014, 12:15   #26
mooreorless
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I have the same mount for my SE and I agree well-designed and it more rigid compared to the binocu-mount. Thanks for you thoughts on the 10x50 SV. Makes me want to get one.
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Old Monday 3rd November 2014, 12:27   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Forbes View Post
paramount to the ease of view of a pair of binoculars is the size of the edge bundle (Randpupille), a metric/property that I cannot ever remember having seen mentioned or explored on BirdForum.
Hi Dale, I also can't remember having seen this term, what does it mean?
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Old Monday 3rd November 2014, 17:58   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Forbes View Post
paramount to the ease of view of a pair of binoculars is the size of the edge bundle (Randpupille), a metric/property that I cannot ever remember having seen mentioned or explored on BirdForum. Naturally, the other factors, like the exit pupil diameter and eyecup shape, mentioned above, will also influence how easy it is to find the image. Said optical viewing comfort is obviously not a completely independent parameter and - for example - the easiest way to increase the field of view of our binoculars would be to sacrifice some of the edge bundle. This makes for a great improvement of the technical data sheet and impressive to look through, but would come at a very real cost to viewing comfort.
Hi Dale,

This sounds very interesting. Can you provide an optical reference (in English) for Randpupille?

Ed
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Old Monday 3rd November 2014, 22:36   #29
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Hi Dale

Thanks so much for your comments pertaining to my post. I feel very fortunate to own my El 10X42 SV. They are in my opinion, stunning.

Bruce

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Forbes View Post
paramount to the ease of view of a pair of binoculars is the size of the edge bundle (Randpupille), a metric/property that I cannot ever remember having seen mentioned or explored on BirdForum. Naturally, the other factors, like the exit pupil diameter and eyecup shape, mentioned above, will also influence how easy it is to find the image. Said optical viewing comfort is obviously not a completely independent parameter and - for example - the easiest way to increase the field of view of our binoculars would be to sacrifice some of the edge bundle. This makes for a great improvement of the technical data sheet and impressive to look through, but would come at a very real cost to viewing comfort.
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Old Tuesday 4th November 2014, 08:10   #30
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Hi Dale,
This sounds very interesting. Can you provide an optical reference (in English) for Randpupille?
Ed
It is fascinating, but I have yet to find anything useful in English but I will keep my eyes open for there is surely an optics textbook somewhere that looks in to this. As you could imagine, a lot of our understanding of how optics work and how everything hangs together (interlinked parameters, the eye, perception) has been built up internally over the years, with very little work being published.
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Old Tuesday 4th November 2014, 09:24   #31
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I think there are many parameters involved in creating a relaxed view: Exit pupil, resolution, light gathering capacity/objective lens size, brightness/transmission, contrast, size/design of the eye piece/eye relief, FOV, AFOV, edge to edge sharpness, depth of field, field curvature, magnification, weight and possibly more.
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Old Tuesday 4th November 2014, 14:11   #32
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That is the real pathway to true optical advancement. All elements brought together to create a more complete, more wholistic viewing experience. Many models have strong points in one or two areas, only a handful are outstanding in most areas. Swarovski does this better than anyone at the present moment, but I guess we'll see if the SF can add large FOV without doing harm to the overall balance of the image. My opinion of course.

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I think there are many parameters involved in creating a relaxed view: Exit pupil, resolution, light gathering capacity/objective lens size, brightness/transmission, contrast, size/design of the eye piece/eye relief, FOV, AFOV, edge to edge sharpness, depth of field, field curvature, magnification, weight and possibly more.

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Old Wednesday 5th November 2014, 07:18   #33
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Originally Posted by Dale Forbes View Post
It is fascinating, but I have yet to find anything useful in English but I will keep my eyes open for there is surely an optics textbook somewhere that looks in to this.
Hi Dale, a reference in German or simply a short explanation from yourself, what "Randpupille" is, would certainly also be interesting...
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Old Wednesday 5th November 2014, 23:19   #34
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In English it means Dilated Pupil Size.

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Hi Dale, a reference in German or simply a short explanation from yourself, what "Randpupille" is, would certainly also be interesting...

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Old Wednesday 5th November 2014, 23:50   #35
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In English it means means Dilated Pupil Size.
I think it means "edge of the pupil," or pupil edge.

Ed
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 04:22   #36
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Originally Posted by Dale Forbes View Post
It is fascinating, but I have yet to find anything useful in English but I will keep my eyes open for there is surely an optics textbook somewhere that looks in to this. As you could imagine, a lot of our understanding of how optics work and how everything hangs together (interlinked parameters, the eye, perception) has been built up internally over the years, with very little work being published.
Hi Dale,

Thanks for drawing attention to that term, which so far I haven't been aware of. I may only guess: When looking into the eyepiece from a distance, we see the exit pupil, and while shifting the head to the side, this exit pupil gradually moves toward the edge of the ocular's eye-lens, while increasingly becoming vignetted. I could imagine that this thing might be called "Randpupille". I have added two pictures for illustration. In some binoculars, in which the prisms are undersized, this vignetting of the Randpupille is extreme, and viewing then turns nervous because the reduced Randpupille easily escapes the eye-pupil once you look toward the edge of field.

Cheers,
Holger
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 07:11   #37
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Interesting!

So this "edge pupil", the size of the exit pupil looked at from the side, could be a simple indicator for the ease of view...

We could compare some photos of bins with good ease of view and ones that are famous to be fiddely, to see if this works...

If true, allbinos can change their exit pupil photos from front view to side view and it would actually be meaningful

Ps: for the translation, Ed is right, Rand = edge. Dale translated himself:
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paramount to the ease of view of a pair of binoculars is the size of the edge bundle

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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 11:21   #38
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Randpupille
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_...ndpupille.html
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 11:39   #39
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old (japan) porros often had squaren shaped exit pupils…
that was not optimal..


but not very common these days,
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 11:58   #40
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Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
old (japan) porros often had squaren shaped exit pupils
that was not optimal..


but not very common these days,

That would be the difference of Bak4 Prisms [round EP] and BK7 Prisms [square EP] I have had some excellent binoculars with the BK7 prisms.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 12:07   #41
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This SV 10x50 seems to be an awesome binocular. And these huge ocular lenses! It's something like fujinon 10x50 FMTR-SX but with more useful eye relief. I read somewhere that Fujinons have only 13mm useful eye relief because of deeply recessed lenses, and therefore doesn't work very well with eyeglasses despite the size if the lenses. But the Swarovski SV 10x50 propably is wonderful in this respect!
I tried the Fujis and you are absolutely correct regarding eye relief. The deep recess seriously degrades reported eye relief. The moment I picked up the 10X50 SV I knew its eye relief was perfect for my eyes. Star fields are extremely relaxing and quite breathtaking in the SV, especially on a stable mount. Birds look pretty good too!
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 12:19   #42
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The answer given in this link isn't correct, the context of the quote in the link (for which the OP is asking an answer) makes it clear that Randpupille is a parameter of the optical device and not of the eye (as dilated pupil), also the literal translation is straight forward (Randpupille = edge pupil).

The quote is interesting btw., as it refers to exactly the same issue raised by Dale.

The quote says: "An der Schnittstelle zum Auge ist der hoechstmoegliche Komfort zu erzielen, so dass das Durchsehen muehelos und entspannt erfolgt (z.B. durch richtige Dimensionierung von Austrittspupillenabstand und Randpupille"

Translated, this means: "At the interface to the eye, the highest possible comfort should be achieved, so that seeing through can be done relaxed and without effort (e.g. by correct sizing of eye relief and edge pupil/edge bundle).

This sounds like a well established term in textbooks...

Last edited by dalat : Thursday 6th November 2014 at 12:27.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 12:43   #43
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I think it means "edge of the pupil," or pupil edge.
Actually, if I look at the literal translation, it is not "edge of the pupil" or "pupil edge", because that would be called "Pupillenrand". Randpupille would be rather be "pupil at the edge". So Holger's guess is probabably exactly what it is, the pupil at the edge of the ocular...
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 12:49   #44
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Originally Posted by Holger Merlitz View Post
Hi Dale,

Thanks for drawing attention to that term, which so far I haven't been aware of. I may only guess: When looking into the eyepiece from a distance, we see the exit pupil, and while shifting the head to the side, this exit pupil gradually moves toward the edge of the ocular's eye-lens, while increasingly becoming vignetted. I could imagine that this thing might be called "Randpupille". I have added two pictures for illustration. In some binoculars, in which the prisms are undersized, this vignetting of the Randpupille is extreme, and viewing then turns nervous because the reduced Randpupille easily escapes the eye-pupil once you look toward the edge of field.

Cheers,
Holger
I have long suspected that that stable exit pupil was the secret of the SV's uncanny "ease of view." I never mentioned it because I'm no expert, just a user.

Holger, I notice that you used an 8x32 SV for the photos. Take the same photos with an 8x32 FL and the results are quite different. Off axis, the FL exit pupil vignettes much more quickly. In my experience, especially with glasses, that means the FL has a fussy view, the 8x32 SE even worse. I no longer have the SE, in large part because of its "fussy" view, but photos of the SV, FL, and SE off axis would be instructive I think.

It's that "slap 'em on your face" ease of view that has me hooked on the SV's (8x32, 8.5x42). I'd bet good money that Zeiss keyed in on this for the SF. If they didn't, they should have.

I also suspect that larger exit pupils are perhaps less critical in this regard. I notice a bigger difference between the 8x32 SV and 8x32 FL than I do between the 8.5x42 SV and 8x42 Prime, just as an example.

Mark
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 13:32   #45
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Like Holger, I also thought the German term "Randpupille" might mean something like "exit pupil at the edge of the field". There is always vignetting of those exit pupils in binoculars, usually reducing the exit pupil area to about 50% of the center field exit pupil.

However, predicting how "relaxing" an image might be based on a simple measurement of vignetting at the field edge won't work for several reasons. First, the raw amount of vignetting at the edge increases with apparent field, so wide field binoculars will probably show more vignetting at their field edges compared to narrow field binoculars even when the curve of increasing vignetting is identical. Second, even if the amount of vignetting at the edge is identical between two binoculars the vignetting curve may be different depending on where the internal stops occur along the objective lens light cone. And finally the effective amount of vignetting varies in the same instrument depending on the size of the eye's pupil compared to the size of the exit pupil. One reason I like large exit pupil binoculars in daylight is that a combination of small eye pupil and large exit pupil results in very low or even no effective vignetting, even when the instrument shows plenty across the full aperture.

Another possibility is that Randpupille is what we call "spherical aberration of the exit pupil" in English, a condition where rays that form the outer edges of the exit pupil have different eye relief than rays that form the center of the exit pupil. That can cause blackouts, especially in daylight, when a small eye pupil may wander from an exit pupil's center to its edge.

Henry

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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 14:12   #46
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Originally Posted by Kammerdiner View Post
I have long suspected that that stable exit pupil was the secret of the SV's uncanny "ease of view." I never mentioned it because I'm no expert, just a user.

Holger, I notice that you used an 8x32 SV for the photos. Take the same photos with an 8x32 FL and the results are quite different. Off axis, the FL exit pupil vignettes much more quickly. In my experience, especially with glasses, that means the FL has a fussy view, the 8x32 SE even worse. I no longer have the SE, in large part because of its "fussy" view, but photos of the SV, FL, and SE off axis would be instructive I think.

It's that "slap 'em on your face" ease of view that has me hooked on the SV's (8x32, 8.5x42). I'd bet good money that Zeiss keyed in on this for the SF. If they didn't, they should have.

I also suspect that larger exit pupils are perhaps less critical in this regard. I notice a bigger difference between the 8x32 SV and 8x32 FL than I do between the 8.5x42 SV and 8x42 Prime, just as an example.

Mark

Not sure it works that way, All of my abbe-koenig prism bins show less vignetting [or at least less collapse of the exit pupil] than my SP prism bins, when viewed in this way.

I can't say there is much correlation between which one provides a less fussy view though. Something like the Terra vignettes early but has an ''easy'' view.

Go figure.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 14:44   #47
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Not sure it works that way...
I'm not sure either.

But something has to explain the difference between the 32mm FL and the SV and the only thing I can think of is the behavior of the exit pupil.

FOV is nearly the same (426 v 420). But the SV has that easy "roam around" view and the FL doesn't.

Left scratching my head.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 16:39   #48
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I'm not sure either.

But something has to explain the difference between the 32mm FL and the SV and the only thing I can think of is the behavior of the exit pupil.

FOV is nearly the same (426 v 420). But the SV has that easy "roam around" view and the FL doesn't.

Left scratching my head.
Eye relief is much better on the SV,
the 8x32 FL have 16mm according to spec. My 7x42 FL I measured to 15mm effective, so I suspect that the 8x32 might have a bit less, and I got that impression when testing. The view is a bit more cramped.

The 8x32 SV have 20mm ER according to specs and effective ER might be around 18mm?

AFOV for the Zeiss FL 8x32 is 64, and for the 8x32 SV is 61.

I think that too big APOV might not be the best solution for a relaxed view.

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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 17:21   #49
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I tried the Fujis and you are absolutely correct regarding eye relief. The deep recess seriously degrades reported eye relief. The moment I picked up the 10X50 SV I knew its eye relief was perfect for my eyes. Star fields are extremely relaxing and quite breathtaking in the SV, especially on a stable mount. Birds look pretty good too!
I am looking for a good 10x50 for astronomy and really like the hefty design of Fujinon. While I usually prefer center focusing I can accept individual focusing for an instrument which is intended mainly for long range use, and tripod mounted.
Pentax DCF ED 10x50 surely is a high class binocular, but I guess SV 10x50 is superior. The much larger FOV is a great advantage. Therefore I really regret that the Fujinon has the adequate eye relief and wider FOV like the Swaro but it's wasted for eyeglasses users by a bad eyepiece design!
Apart from that the Fujinon is lower priced than pentax DCF ED and almost 1/3 of the price of SV 10x50!
A long ER isn't any good if you can't make use of it. So therefore the choice will be between DCF ED and SV. Both alternatives costs a lot, and SV10x50 a fortune...
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Old Thursday 6th November 2014, 17:44   #50
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I am looking for a good 10x50 for astronomy and really like the hefty design of Fujinon. While I usually prefer center focusing I can accept individual focusing for an instrument which is intended mainly for long range use, and tripod mounted.
Pentax DCF ED 10x50 surely is a high class binocular, but I guess SV 10x50 is superior. The much larger FOV is a great advantage. Therefore I really regret that the Fujinon has the adequate eye relief and wider FOV like the Swaro but it's wasted for eyeglasses users by a bad eyepiece design!
Apart from that the Fujinon is lower priced than pentax DCF ED and almost 1/3 of the price of SV 10x50!
A long ER isn't any good if you can't make use of it. So therefore the choice will be between DCF ED and SV. Both alternatives costs a lot, and SV10x50 a fortune...
Zeiss Conquest 10x56?

not as good as the SV 10x50 but cheaper..
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