Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Some "unseen" descriptions … now seen!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 28 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Tuesday 17th March 2015, 16:35   #26
James Jobling
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 590
Thank you all for your contributions to this and similar threads. Rather than acknowledge you individually on line I have edited HBWAlive Key accordingly, and hope the entries meet with your approval.
James Jobling is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th March 2015, 20:17   #27
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
Samt is in german velvet.
sammetinus probably means "velvety" as James now suggests.
I tried searching Google Books for it (using various case endings): the word seemed most often used in association with niger (black)/nigredo (blackness), sometimes also with ruber/rubicundus (red), or fuscus (dark brown); all uses I saw were by authors who had obviously Germanic names.
See [this] for some more etymological strolling.
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 18th March 2015, 02:32   #28
mb1848
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Santa Maria, California USA
Posts: 1,886
Re: da Cruz, & Cruz:
Prepositions that can be used in Portuguese surnames are da, das, do, dos and de, such as in Luís de Sousa, Maria da Conceição, Osvaldo dos Santos, Luísa das Neves, etc. and mean "from" or "of". Da, dos, etc. are contractions of the preposition de and a definite article (o, as, etc.), meaning "from the" or "of the". The current convention in Portuguese is that they be written in lower case. Different from in Italian surnames, these conjunctives are usually not part of a composite name, i.e., "Sousa" is not different from "de Sousa", and both are ordered under 'S' in an alphabetical list. Therefore, one should not refer to Luís Inácio Lula da Silva as Mr. Da Silva but rather Mr. Silva. The conjunction "e" (and) is also common, e.g. "Maria Costa e Silva". Most commonly this would be a composite surname; in this case the person should be addressed as "Ms Costa e Silva", and not as Ms. Silva.
Wikipedia
mb1848 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 18th March 2015, 13:14   #29
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,980
"SAMMET, Sammt, Samt" in Das Deutsches Wörterbuch.

How the word was used in Latin texts (fide Google Books; I added approximate translations--with sammetinus simply anglicized into "sammetine"; and, where possible, also a link to an image of what I think is described; I give no guarantee that my ability of finding the current valid name of staphylinid beetles described in Latin in 19th-C books is infallible, though ):

Last edited by l_raty : Thursday 19th March 2015 at 06:40.
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 18th March 2015, 14:45   #30
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,796
sammetina

In Swedish the word sammet (known from the 1500's) is equivalent of the English word; velvet. Our sammet (ealier, in Old Swedish; samet) is claimed to derrive from the Middle Low German word sammet/sammit, which is said to origin in how velvet was made and the (Late) Greek ἑξάμιτον, from ἑξάμιτος, (meaning six threads) based on ἑξα- and μίτος.

Useful? I wouldn´t know … simply reading Svenska Akademiens Ordbok (the Swedish counterpart of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) or the Deutsches Wörterbuch (DWB).)

That´s all I have to say on this one, knowing from earlier on I´m usually in deep water when trying to figure out those ancient words.

Cheers!

PS. James also left a short comment regarding this name in the thread emiliae from de Dalmas (here), Post No. #6.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 18th March 2015, 15:12   #31
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,980
Jones WJ. 2013. German Colour Terms: A study in their historical evolution from earliest times to the present : [samt-]

Perhaps "velvet-like" would be more correct than "velvety"? ("Velvety" suggests a velvet-like texture to me, rather than a velvet-like colour.)

Last edited by l_raty : Wednesday 18th March 2015 at 16:33.
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 18th March 2015, 18:19   #32
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
In Swedish the word sammet (known from the 1500's) is equivalent of the English word; velvet. Our sammet (ealier, in Old Swedish; samet) is claimed to derrive from the Middle Low German word sammet/sammit, which is said to origin in how velvet was made and the (Late) Greek ἑξάμιτον, from ἑξάμιτος, (meaning six threads) based on ἑξα- and μίτος.

Useful? I wouldn´t know … simply reading Svenska Akademiens Ordbok (the Swedish counterpart of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) or the Deutsches Wörterbuch (DWB).)
It's indeed quite similar to what the DWB says of it in German. Out of curiosity: would you use it as a colour modifier in today's Swedish? (Eg., as [here].)
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 18th March 2015, 22:34   #33
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
Out of curiosity: would you use it as a colour modifier in today's Swedish?
Absolutely; mostly used in exactly that decription sammetssvart is a deep, deep (velvety) black (svart), a term used when you mean a true, real dark, "blacker than black" shade.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 19th March 2015, 08:58   #34
kitefarrago
Registered User
 
kitefarrago's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 2,406
In modern German I think Samt would always refer to the texture. Whether there's ever been a colour connotation I couldn't say. (My response in the other thread is a bit impoverished given the discussion here - I hadn't read that when I posted.)

Andrea
kitefarrago is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 19th March 2015, 09:55   #35
James Jobling
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 590
Thank you all for your input. My sister-in-law, a German-English technical translator, confirms that Sammet is the old German word for velvet, and refers to texture rather than colour (cf. silk). We tend to think of velvet as jet-black or deep-purple, but the examples given by Laurent show that in Mod. Latin it was applied to a variety of deep tints, normally with a colour qualifier. I shall retain the existing HBWAlive Key entry.
James Jobling is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 19th March 2015, 21:24   #36
nartreb
Speak softly and carry a long lens
 
nartreb's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1,199
In English, "velvet" is a fabric having a distinctively furry texture (on one side). It was historically made from silk yarns, which would be whitish if undyed, but in practice the yarns used for velvet are usually dyed some "rich", deep color: black, "royal" blue, "emerald" green, "ruby" red, "imperial" purple, etc. It's rather unusual to describe a color as "velvet"; in the examples in this thread the intent seems to be to convey "rich" or "deep" color (although one of the beetles is actually furry).

I would understand "velvet black" to mean absolute black, with no reflections. Velvet-like fabrics are commonly used in stagecraft and in the display of jewelry, because the texture eliminates specular reflections.

The manufacturing technique involves a "six-threaded" weave, which gives rise (via Greek "hexamitos") to the word "Sammet" in German. However, in English there is a distinction between the style of weave and presence of pile (furriness): "Samite" is a heavy silk fabric with a six-threaded weave [often with gold embroidery], but lacks the "supplementary warp loops" needed to produce the furry surface which defines velvet.
__________________
My bird photos

Last edited by nartreb : Thursday 19th March 2015 at 21:40.
nartreb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 19th March 2015, 22:35   #37
mb1848
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Santa Maria, California USA
Posts: 1,886
"No. 28:
● Tiltria … as in? I haven´t found the "Tiltria" itself nor the Plate (tafel)"
Still cannot find this important book online but Tiltria is Reichenbach's genus for the River Warbler. From Gray's Hand-List of Genera and Species of Birds.
mb1848 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 20th March 2015, 10:34   #38
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,980
No. 28:
● Tiltria

Quote:
Originally Posted by mb1848 View Post
Still cannot find this important book online but Tiltria is Reichenbach's genus for the River Warbler. From Gray's Hand-List of Genera and Species of Birds.
Gray: [here].

Unfortunately, Reichenbach's plates are very rare (and I have never seen them online). One of them was reproduced by Gregory 2006 [pdf], who also described the work as: "a series of 100 uncoloured plates of superior draughtsmanship, depicting the heads, feet, wings and tails of some 1200 genera, many of which were new at that time." The names in this work are available without originally included nominal species and without description, through their simple association with an illustration. I think it unlikely that the work would help understanding the etymology of a name that Reichenbach introduced there.

The word doesn't seem to be Latin. If Greek: τίλτρια as such does not appear in dictionaries; however, the suffix -τρια can denote the female doer of an action; and τίλλω means "to pluck", "to pull out hair", "to tear one's hair in sorrow" or, metaphorically, "to vex" or "to annoy". So it might mean "she who plucks", "she who tears her hair in sorrow", or "she who annoys". How we can link that to the River Warbler, I don't know for sure...

(PS - with a "παρα-" prefix: παρατίλτρια = female slave who plucked the hairs from her mistress's body.)

Last edited by l_raty : Friday 20th March 2015 at 13:07.
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 20th March 2015, 17:22   #39
mb1848
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Santa Maria, California USA
Posts: 1,886
Thank You Laurent. Perhaps Reichenbach confused the River Warbler with a bird who uses hair in their nest. Willow Warbler do but River Warbler uses soft grass. Some North American birds vex and annoy live mammals for nesting materials (hair) like Bison, cattle, deer Moose.
mb1848 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 20th March 2015, 18:56   #40
mb1848
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Santa Maria, California USA
Posts: 1,886
I found the Reichenbach black and white drawings. I hope people not from North America can see google books. I read in a catalog that a document was inserted in the front of this publication, Ornithologie méthodique ou exposé des genres des oiseaux de toutes... , which was Reichenbach's prodromus(?) or just the French title page? Google Book has it listed under this. The drawing does not add anything to the etymology. I would like to find the text but march madness is interfering.
Page xci of the google book, Reichenbach number LVIII:
http://books.google.com/books?id=2R4...gbs_navlinks_s .

Last edited by mb1848 : Friday 20th March 2015 at 19:07.
mb1848 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 20th March 2015, 19:28   #41
James Jobling
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 590
Reichenbach's Naturliche System...
Mark has done a great service in making this rare volume available (Reichenbach's works are notoriously difficult to index). However, the identity of Tiltria still needs resolving. It is not the River Warbler Locustella fluviatilis, nor is it the River/Riverbank Warbler Phaeothlypis rivularis. My first impression was some sort of meliphagid, but it doesn't fit there either (the tail pattern seems quite distinctive). What do other readers think?
PS. Perhaps we should put this in the Identification Forum!!!
James Jobling is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 21st March 2015, 02:04   #42
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,796
Thumbs up Well found, Mark!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mb1848 View Post
I hope people not from North America can see google books. ... .
I sure could (and obviously also James), but if someone else can't ... plate attached (+ close-up of the Tiltria itself).
x
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Plate LVIII incl. Tiltria .jpg
Views:	81
Size:	521.4 KB
ID:	536765  Click image for larger version

Name:	Plate LVIII, Tiltria, detail .jpg
Views:	82
Size:	83.0 KB
ID:	536766  

Last edited by Calalp : Saturday 21st March 2015 at 02:07.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 21st March 2015, 04:24   #43
mb1848
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Santa Maria, California USA
Posts: 1,886
The head sort of looks like a Cinclus / dipper?? But the tail is not right. The asterisk means ad naturam. Natural size. A couple of places in the book it seems to say Reichenbach delineated the icones?
mb1848 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 21st March 2015, 10:27   #44
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,796
Tiltria identificaton ...

In Gray's Hand-list of the genera and species of birds 1869 Tiltria is listed as a synonym of the Genus Potamus (here), p.210, No. 790, (also see Potamus, here and here) [Note: the species in Parentheses is the Type for the Genus, not necessarily equal of any obscure synonym on species level], however I agree with James in that the illustration sure doesn´t fit Eurasian River Warbler Locustella fluviatilis WOLF 1810 [profile and tail here], and it is certainly not the South American species Neotropical River Warbler (Myiothlypis/Basileuterus) Phaeothlypis rivularis WIED-NEUWIED 1821 (a k a simply River alt. Riverbank Warbler). Check any photo.

So what is it?

The head pattern, shape of bill, the rounded tail with its distictive pattern, the relatively short wing and the very short hind toe ought to be enough to take us a bit further …

PS. The best place to start looking is probably (still today?) in (or close) to; "Trepidatores: Motacillinae, Anthinae & Malurinae" ...
xz

Last edited by Calalp : Saturday 21st March 2015 at 10:39. Reason: PS.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 21st March 2015, 17:03   #45
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
In Gray's Hand-list of the genera and species of birds 1869 Tiltria is listed as a synonym of the Genus Potamus (here), p.210, No. 790, (also see Potamus, here and here) [Note: the species in Parentheses is the Type for the Genus, not necessarily equal of any obscure synonym on species level]
The type species of Podamodus Kaup [OD] is Sylvia fluviatilis Wolf in Meyer & Wolf [OD] by original monotypy.
In Gray 1855, as explained [here], the genera are given with their main synonyms and types, hence the species in parentheses can indeed be interpreted as the type of the genus name treated as valid. [Here], Gray listed Tiltria in the synonymy of Potamodus, and cited the type (of Potamodus) as "Sylvia fluviatilis, Mey." (this might have been a type designation, had the type not already been fixed).
In Gray 1869, as explained [here], the species listed under a genus are those present in the British Museum collections (in bold), or wanted by the Museum (in thin), hence not (necessarily) the types of the genera. [Here], Gray once more placed Tiltria in the synonymy of Potamodus, in which he included only "fluviatilis, Mey. & W.; Descr.de l'Egypte, t. 13. 3; Gould B. E. pl. 102."

Note that Tiltria was indeed introduced without any nominal species included, in which case the first subsequently included nominal species are deemed to be the "originally included" nominal species. (The type species should normally be chosen among these, even if this conflicts with the illustration that made the name available.) In the present case, however, Gray did not actually include anything in Tiltria itself, because the "mere citation of an available genus-group name as a synonym of another" (which is what he did) "does not constitute inclusion of the nominal species of the latter in the former, or vice versa" (ICZN 67.2.4). Thus Tiltria may still never have had any included nominal species, and if so has no type species.
Quote:
So what is it?

The head pattern, shape of bill, the rounded tail with its distictive pattern, the relatively short wing and the very short hind toe ought to be enough to take us a bit further …
To me, the graduated tail, with dark markings forming a subterminal band interrupted on the central rectrice, is quite strongly suggestive of a Cisticolid (if so, most likely a plain Cisticola sp., albeit I can't say which one; clearly not C. juncidis; note that the tail here is seen from above, while in the figure labelled "Cisticola" on the same plate it is shown from below).
The very short hind nail is indeed intriguing, but it's probably hard to exclude the possibility that the nail was simply broken on the specimen which was illustrated.
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 21st March 2015, 19:03   #46
mb1848
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Santa Maria, California USA
Posts: 1,886
Laurent said: "Thus Tiltria may still never have had any included nominal species, and if so has no type species."
But Reichenbach in the text I've seen has a part called Genera et Species typicae. He often not only names the type species but refers to a book or picture.
mb1848 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 22nd March 2015, 14:37   #47
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,796
Wink Interim report!

So far so good … this far we´ve been able to solve quite a few (or at least add some information on most) of those earlier "unseen" ones. Not bad!

This only leave us with the following:

gerhardi:
● in the subspecies Zosterops senegalensis gerhardi VAN DEN ELZEN & KÖNIG 1983 (OD, here).
= the German ornithologist Gerhard Nikolaus (fl. 2010), writer of Distribution Atlas of Sudan's Birds with Notes on Habitat and Status 1987 and Birds of South Sudan 1989 ... etc. etc.

Also see this link, and the earlier Bird Forum thread here.

passmori
● … in the invalid "Cygnus Passmori" HINCKS 1865 (OD, here) [Syn. Cygnus buccinator RICHARDSON 1832]
= most likely the British (later Canadian) Samuel Wilkins Passmore (b. ca. 1805), of Toronto, taxidermist to the Montreal Natural History Society

mariae
● … in "T. [Trochilus] Mariæ" (OD, here).
= most likely (I agree), thanks to the clever "guess" by Martin and the links in his Post No. #18: the French Marie Wachanru (1821–1853), whose full (maiden) name was Marie-Rose Gaudemard. Wife of the French naturalist, entomologist Alexandre Wachanru ... etc. etc. much more on her (if you know French) in that Obituary.

and then it´s the tricky, still unidentified:

Tiltria
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Jobling View Post
Perhaps we should put this in the Identification Forum!!!
Yes, James, why not? Do that. Maybe the Identification guys would be able to tell us what it could be!?

And, by the way; while on the subject of identification!

nigellii
● in the "Nigells Pheasant-Grouse. Tetraogallus Nigellii" GRAY … couldn´t the nigellii and nigelli commemorate the same man (i.e. Dr Macneill)!? And be synonymous of (or at least intended at) the same (of today's valid) species? I think that was the original intention …

See link here, and Wiki's Taxonomy and systematics chapter (here) for Himalayan snowcock (Tetraogallus himalayensis).

---

However, the following are, this far, still totally unexplained:

libussa (OD, here)

Merva … (OD, here)

lucieni (OD, here)
Quote:
"… proposons de lui donner le nom d’un jeune Français, collaborateur de MM. le Dr Lucan et Petit à qui nous devons tant de fait nouveaux intéressant lʼornithologi de la région du Congo."
The answer to who this "Lucien" was is probably hidden in Louis Petit's book Dix années de chasses d'un jeune naturaliste au Congo 1926 (apparently nowhere to be found on-line).

sabinae a k a "Le C.[Colibri] de Sabine" (OD, here)

tounelieri
… in the subspecies Hypotaenidia philippensis tounelieri SCHODDE & NAUROIS 1982 as "Gallirallus philippensis tounelieri" (OD, here, p.131+):
Quote:
"Accordingly, we treat our series from the Coral Sea as a new subspecies, naming it after a colleague of de Naurois,
Gallirallus philippensis tounelieri, n. subsp
."
Who this colleague was, or is (presumably a Mr. Tounelier) we still do not know.

Anyone know anything on any of these names?

PS. "Himelia", in No.33 ... sorry for the earlier (erroneous) link. Wrong year, wrong journal! It´s this one (here)!!!
Not to be confused with Himalia (on p.224, same volume).

PPS. And the Leocadiae (vs Aline) still remain a mystery?
x

Last edited by Calalp : Sunday 22nd March 2015 at 19:22. Reason: non-working Himelia link
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 22nd March 2015, 17:53   #48
Taphrospilus
Registered User
 
Taphrospilus's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Munich
Posts: 1,108
No. 12: libussa

libussa is probably Libussa or english version Libussa.
Taphrospilus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 22nd March 2015, 19:11   #49
mb1848
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Santa Maria, California USA
Posts: 1,886
Taphrospilus is correct. JOHANN LUDWIG CHOULANT Ludwig Reichenbach's most intimate friend wrote an Opera called Libussa.
mb1848 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th March 2015, 17:10   #50
Taphrospilus
Registered User
 
Taphrospilus's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Munich
Posts: 1,108
As HBW Alive mention now....

Quote:
Eponym; "Colibri de Marie"; dedication not given (Bourcier & Mulsant 1846, Annales Sci. Phys. Nat. Agric. Indust., Soc. Royale Agric. Lyon, 9, 319); perhaps for Bourcier's daughter Marie Jules Victorine Bourcier (b. 1842), or Mulsant's aunt Marie Rosalie Etiennette Tuffet née Mulsant (d. 1834), or Maria Sybilla Merian (1647-1717) Swiss-German botanical artist and entomologist in Surinam 1699-1701, or Marie-Rose Wachanru née Gaudemard (1821-1853) French entomologist, both of whom Mulsant admired (syn. Amazilia beryllina)
...I ask myself if Marie Jules Victorine Mulsant (b. 1842) (and not Bourcier) would be correct?
Taphrospilus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Terminology Q's - Center vs Edge "Sharpness" vs "Focus" walternewton Binoculars 10 Tuesday 29th March 2011 02:13
"David Attenborough's", "First Life" BBC2 Frid 21.00-22.00pm Part 1/2 05/11/2010 Peewit TV & Radio Alert For Birding, Nature and Other Wildlife 2 Friday 19th November 2010 12:17
What makes a person a "naturalist" rather than a "nature lover"? Terry O'Nolley Birds & Birding 9 Friday 16th September 2005 11:42
"Lifers" - usually on a "birding trip" or by chance when you least expect it? pattianne Your Birding Day 17 Wednesday 4th February 2004 01:23



Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.33343005 seconds with 35 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 23:27.