Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

The fairly unknown Louis Jean Pierre Vieillot or Louis Pierre Vieillot

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Friday 24th June 2016, 12:48   #1
Taphrospilus
Registered User
 
Taphrospilus's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Munich
Posts: 1,092
The fairly unknown Louis Jean Pierre Vieillot or Louis Pierre Vieillot

Once upon a time René Primevère Lesson wrote here:

Quote:
M. Vieillot, le doyen des ornithologistes, vient de mourir à Rouen.
The article was from 1831 so the whole scientific world interpreted his death year as 1831. But Lesson did not mention the exact date. The only wrong direction he gave was Rouen as death place.

Of course there a couple dedications HBW Alive key on Vieillot as is in fact Vieillot is not that unknown (as I wrote in the title) as a lot of birds are newly described by this gentleman.

So reading carefully Paul Henry Oehser on Louis Jean?? Pierre Vieillot (1748–1831) gave me an idea where to search. In there he wrote:

Quote:
Originally from Yvetot, where his grandparents were postmasters, this illustrious naturalist lived with his brother at the Quatre-Mares Manor in the vicinity of Sotteville-lés-Rouen.
Therefore the place to find his death entry is Sotteville-lés-Rouen and not Rouen as claimed by Lesson.

And here p. 134 we can find the death of Louis Pierre Vieillot as 25 August 1830. It looks like no Jean like James correctly claimed in his key. Or did I miss something? There seems to be a widow (veuve) at time of death.

But I am sure Laurent will check and can clarify my statements and as well the date of birth as I feel it is douze (12) and not 10 May 1748 as often claimed in various sources.

So my personal opinion:

Louis Pierre Vieillot born 12. May 1748 in Yvetot died 25 August 1830 in Sotteville-lés-Rouen. The name contains no Jean.

Last edited by Taphrospilus : Friday 24th June 2016 at 12:51.
Taphrospilus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 24th June 2016, 13:42   #2
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,967
Quote:
[...] le jour d'hier a cinq heures apres midi, au domicile de Madame veuve Vieillot, sis en cette commune au hameau de Quatremare, Louis Pierre Vieillot est décédé agé de quatre-vingt-deux ans, né à Yvetot le douze mai mil sept cent quarante-huit [...]
[...] yesterday at five after noon, at the home of Mrs. widow Vieillot, located in this municipality in the hamlet of Quatremare, Louis Pierre Vieillot died aged eighty-two, born in Yvetot on 12 May 1748 [...]

So he died on 24 August. (There is nowadays a village named Quatremare, located about 20km S of Rouen and Sotteville, but I doubt this was ever part of the municipality of Sotteville. It seems a part of Sotteville is now known as "le quartier de Quatre-Mares": more likely the hamlet was at some point included in the city, as the latter grew larger.)

He was baptised ("Louis Pierre", no "Jean" here either) on 12 May 1748 in Yvetot: [here], 25/56, lower right. His date of birth is not recorded here.
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 24th June 2016, 22:31   #3
Melanie
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kassel, Germany
Posts: 2,598
The question is who was the first who added the name Jean to his name and why?
Melanie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 25th June 2016, 14:55   #4
Rick Wright
Registered User
 
Rick Wright's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bloomfield, New Jersey, USA
Posts: 131
Anybody know who owns the ms of volumes III and IV of his Hist.nat. des oiseaux de l'Amérique septentrionale? Last time they were sold, there was apparently a letter from his niece tipped in to one of them.
I've been throwing bits and pieces of Vieillotiana into a folder for several years now, and haven't got much farther than when I started.
__________________
Rick Wright

Victor Emanuel Nature Tours
www.ventbird.com
Rick Wright is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 25th June 2016, 15:12   #5
Rick Wright
Registered User
 
Rick Wright's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bloomfield, New Jersey, USA
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
The question is who was the first who added the name Jean to his name and why?
I don't know who first did it -- it's plain that it antedates Saunders -- but I've wondered whether it wasn't added by "attraction" from Audebert's name.

By the way, who else thinks it odd that this forgotten, neglected, and scorned ornithologist, to accept Lesson's assessments, should have been made the subject of a very fine bust?
__________________
Rick Wright

Victor Emanuel Nature Tours
www.ventbird.com
Rick Wright is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 25th June 2016, 19:17   #6
mb1848
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Santa Maria, California USA
Posts: 1,882
Gustave Flaubert's Godmother was the wife of Louis Augustin Vieillot of Quatre-Mares in 1822 which explains all the ornithological allusions in his work.
http://flaubert.univ-rouen.fr/biographie/gfbap.php .
__________________
Mark Brown, Esq.
mb1848 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 25th June 2016, 20:07   #7
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,784
The death year 1830 is quite a sensation!

Just about everybody, everywhere; books, journals, articles, Museums [incl. (MNHN), Muséum national d'histoire naturelle, in Paris], Archives, catalogues, Libraries [incl. BHL (Biodiversity Heritage Library) and even the proud Bibliotèque national de France itself!), etc. etc. … all over the World, seem to claim 1831!

And, in most cases he´s simply "Louis Pierre Vieillot".
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 26th June 2016, 06:53   #8
Taphrospilus
Registered User
 
Taphrospilus's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Munich
Posts: 1,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Wright View Post
Anybody know who owns the ms of volumes III and IV of his Hist.nat. des oiseaux de l'Amérique septentrionale? Last time they were sold, there was apparently a letter from his niece tipped in to one of them.
I've been throwing bits and pieces of Vieillotiana into a folder for several years now, and haven't got much farther than when I started.
I assume it is about Vieillotiana ipsissima (by the way not present in HBW Alive key). Where did you get the information about the existentence of such a MS? Have you contacted Smithsonian Institution about the specimen?

Last edited by Taphrospilus : Sunday 26th June 2016 at 07:04.
Taphrospilus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 26th June 2016, 09:59   #9
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
... (by the way not present in HBW Alive key). ...
And why should it?

It´s the HBW Alive Key to Scientific Names in Ornithology, not a Latin Dictionary.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 26th June 2016, 11:56   #10
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,967
Indeed, there is no such name as "Vieillotiana ipsissima" there -- these are just two words which are part of the Latin text describing Myiarchus crinitus var. irritabilis. The text starts with a list of refs, the first of which reads:
Quote:
Tyrannus irritabilis, Vieillot, Ency. Meth. 1823, ii. 847, ex Suiriri pardoy-rojo, Azara, Apunt. ii. 143, No. 195. Paraguay.
Then comes a description that compares this variety to typical crinitus ("M. Myiarcho crinito ipsissimo simillimus" etc.), which itself is followed by a description of its range ("Habitat" etc.), with an annotated list of countries where specimens of the bird had been obtained. Under "Paraguay", Coues commented:
Quote:
avis Azarana-Vieillotiana ipsissima!
...which means "the Azaran-Vieillotian bird itself!", indicating that this was the very bird which was originally named irritabilis by Vieillot, based on Azara's Suiriri pardo-y-rojo, in the first ref he had cited.
With "bits and pieces of Vieillotiana", Rick just meant "bits and pieces about Vieillot and his work", I believe.

Last edited by l_raty : Sunday 26th June 2016 at 14:57.
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 26th June 2016, 17:16   #11
Rick Wright
Registered User
 
Rick Wright's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bloomfield, New Jersey, USA
Posts: 131
"[quote=Calalp;3419048]The death year 1830 is quite a sensation!

"Just about everybody, everywhere; books, journals, articles, Museums [incl. (MNHN), Muséum national d'histoire naturelle, in Paris], Archives, catalogues, Libraries [incl. BHL (Biodiversity Heritage Library) and even the proud Bibliotèque national de France itself!), etc. etc. … all over the World, seem to claim 1831!"


The date was authoritatively corrected in 1989 in the catalogue of the H. Bradley Martin sale at Sotheby's, NY, lot 226: "... Vieillot's death a year earlier than the generally accepted date of 1831." (By the way, thanks to Dan Lewis for first pointing me to that sale.)

Sometimes takes a few years -- in this case, decades -- for that sort of thing to trickle into the secondary literature.
__________________
Rick Wright

Victor Emanuel Nature Tours
www.ventbird.com

Last edited by Rick Wright : Sunday 26th June 2016 at 17:18.
Rick Wright is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 26th June 2016, 17:17   #12
Rick Wright
Registered User
 
Rick Wright's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bloomfield, New Jersey, USA
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
I assume it is about Vieillotiana ipsissima (by the way not present in HBW Alive key). Where did you get the information about the existentence of such a MS? Have you contacted Smithsonian Institution about the specimen?
Not entirely sure what you mean here. [Oh, never mind -- just read Laurent's response, which is correct.]
__________________
Rick Wright

Victor Emanuel Nature Tours
www.ventbird.com

Last edited by Rick Wright : Sunday 26th June 2016 at 17:19.
Rick Wright is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 27th June 2016, 07:25   #13
Taphrospilus
Registered User
 
Taphrospilus's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Munich
Posts: 1,092
In fact a faux pas from me to interpret Vieillotiana as a genus on a label in SI. Sorry for this confusion (as latin is not my business). Nevertheless I still have the question on:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Wright View Post
The date was authoritatively corrected in 1989 in the catalogue of the H. Bradley Martin sale at Sotheby's, NY, lot 226: "... Vieillot's death a year earlier than the generally accepted date of 1831." (By the way, thanks to Dan Lewis for first pointing me to that sale.).
Was that the place where they sold the ms of volumes III and IV of his Hist.nat. des oiseaux de l'Amérique septentrionale last? I tried to find here the lot 226 in combination with year 1989 you mentioned but failed.

Last edited by Taphrospilus : Monday 27th June 2016 at 09:03.
Taphrospilus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 27th June 2016, 09:40   #14
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,784
Vi-ey-...?

By the way, a small side-track (for us non-French-speakers) how do you pronounce his Surname? With l's or without?

In an attempt to interpret it into English sounds, would it be; "vi-ej-awe" or "vi-ej-law"?

Or ... ?
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 27th June 2016, 10:09   #15
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
By the way, a small side-track (for us non-French-speakers) how do you pronounce his Surname? With l's or without?

In an attempt to interpret it into English sounds, would it be; "vi-ej-awe" or "vi-ej-law"?

Or ... ?
No 'l'. If your computer has a speaker, you can easily listen to it on Google translate. (It's a standard French adjective, hence the pronunciation is not guessed by the program.)

Vieh-yo?

(No 'j' either in English sounds, of course. )
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 27th June 2016, 10:16   #16
Taphrospilus
Registered User
 
Taphrospilus's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Munich
Posts: 1,092
Just to add there is another publication about his life (assume those who reseached him are aware of it):

Georges Olivier ''Un Grand ornithologiste normand, Louis-Pierre Vieillot: sa vie, son oeuvre'', [communication à l'] Académie des sciences, belles-lettres et arts de Rouen, 27 octobre 1961
Taphrospilus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 27th June 2016, 14:01   #17
Rick Wright
Registered User
 
Rick Wright's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bloomfield, New Jersey, USA
Posts: 131
Quote:
Was that the place where they sold the ms of volumes III and IV of his Hist.nat. des oiseaux de l'Amérique septentrionale last? I tried to find here the lot 226 in combination with year 1989 you mentioned but failed.
On his death and in accordance with his wishes, Vieillot's niece transmitted the ms fair copy of vols. 3 and 4, including 47 illustrations by Prêtre at various stages of production, to the comte de Riocour, for whom V had done some cataloguing work.

The ms was sold at Drouot to a foreign collector in April 1961. Whether that purchaser was Bradley Martin, or it came into his hands later, I don't know.

It was sold again at Sotheby's to another unnamed collector in 1989.

As late as 1964, some of Vieillot's specimens were still in possession of the family. Many had been sold to Boucard in 1888.
__________________
Rick Wright

Victor Emanuel Nature Tours
www.ventbird.com

Last edited by Rick Wright : Tuesday 28th June 2016 at 13:00.
Rick Wright is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2016, 09:18   #18
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,784
Martin, how come you´ve amended his name on the German Wiki-page from yesterday's "Louis (Jean) Pierre Vieillot" to "Louis Jean Pierre Vieillot" ... ?

Have you found any proof Jean did was one of of his names?!

Or why did you drop the brackets?

Björn

PS. And, Laurent, Thanks! Then "vijejå" it will be! (in Swedish that is)
--

Last edited by Calalp : Tuesday 28th June 2016 at 10:40. Reason: PS.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2016, 12:04   #19
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
Martin, how come you´ve amended his name on the German Wiki-page from yesterday's "Louis (Jean) Pierre Vieillot" to "Louis Jean Pierre Vieillot" ... ?
Martin didn't do it, and it is based on no additional evidence.
See the page history: https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...action=history
The change back was by a user named "MBq", with comment "MBq verschob die Seite Louis Pierre Vieillot nach Louis Jean Pierre Vieillot: gesamte literatur nennt ihn so, auch en.wp und fr.wp".
The joys of WP...
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2016, 13:33   #20
Taphrospilus
Registered User
 
Taphrospilus's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Munich
Posts: 1,092
Tried to convince them here to revert but there are a lot of users believing more in other Wikis and old literature than babtism entries etc.

Last edited by Taphrospilus : Tuesday 28th June 2016 at 14:06.
Taphrospilus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2016, 17:11   #21
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,784
I see, no shame on you, Martin, at least in my MS he will be simply: Louis Pierre Vieillot (1748–1830)

Thanks!
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 29th June 2016, 10:59   #22
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
Tried to convince them here to revert but there are a lot of users believing more in other Wikis and old literature than baptism entries etc.
It's fairly standard practice on Wikipedia, I think, to prefer secondary sources (those which convey "widely accepted", "consensual" ideas) over primary sources (for which a consensus interpretation doesn't exist yet).
Actually, with an original baptism entry, you may be quite close to conflicting with [this policy]. (Even if you are evidently right.)
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 29th June 2016, 13:02   #23
Taphrospilus
Registered User
 
Taphrospilus's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Munich
Posts: 1,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
Actually, with an original baptism entry, you may be quite close to conflicting with [this policy]. (Even if you are evidently right.)
You might be correct but they could use this source instead. Of course I see a lot of other more important issues which should be solved before rejecting valid research. And why should an original baptism entry be no reliable, published source? They are published an everyone can read them. But I think this is here the wrong place to discuss Wikipedia.

P.S. And the quality of articles is sometimes far from scientific publications and use other wikis as a reference as well.

Last edited by Taphrospilus : Wednesday 29th June 2016 at 13:29.
Taphrospilus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 27th July 2018, 10:25   #24
Taphrospilus
Registered User
 
Taphrospilus's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Munich
Posts: 1,092
viellotinus and vielloti

The key entry viellotinus may need some update to Louis Pierre Vieillot (1748-1830). Today it is...

Quote:
Louis Pierre Vieillot (1748-1831) French naturalist, collector; ex “Petit Malfini” of de Buffon (Sonnini ed.)1800-1802 (syn. Accipiter striatus).
vielloti as well:

Quote:
Original spelling of specific name Trochilus vieilloti Shaw, 1812 (= subsp. Mellisuga minima).
OD here writes it as Trochilus vielloti (no i). But the missing i makes me some headache. Shouldn't the name be corrected as per code. In Shaws description he clearly referred to description and illustration of l'Oiseau-Mouche à ventre-gris by Louis Pierre Vieillot (even misspelled). Vieillot love to confuse me l'Oiseau-Mouche à ventre-gris or here? I assume it is the Oiseau-Mouche à ventre-gris Shaw mentioned. I am sure Plate 53 is the subspecies described and illustrated by Vieillot.

I am not sure if Zonomen is correct with the entry:

Quote:
Mellisuga minima vielloti Nomenclature
As noted in the Richmond Index, Shaw consistently misspells Vieillot's name as "Viellot" throughout the volume.
Understandably, the specific epithet is often emended to "vieilloti", and the justification of that emandation is the subject of dispute.
In my view, special judgments and divination of "original intent" are avoided by simply employing the spelling used by the author of the name.

Last edited by Taphrospilus : Friday 27th July 2018 at 12:09.
Taphrospilus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 27th July 2018, 17:32   #25
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,784
Today's HBW (very) Alive Key now has:
Quote:
Quote:
vieilloti
Louis Pierre Vieillot (1748-1830) French naturalist, collector (Coccyzus (ex Saurothera vetula Vieillot, 1819), syn. Colibri serrirostris, syn. Dendroica erithachorides, Lybius (ex “Barbu Rubicon” of Levaillant 1807), subsp. Mellisuga minima, syn. Pachyramphus viridis, syn. Pyrrhula pyrrhula europoea (ex Pyrrhula europoea Vieillot, 1816), Sphecotheres, syn. Strepera versicolor, syn. Tachuris rubrigastra, subsp. Tangara mexicana).
Quote:
vieillotii
Louis Pierre Vieillot (1748-1830) French naturalist, collector (syn. Dendrocopos borealis, syn. Pyrrhomyias cinnamomea).
Quote:
vieillotioides
Specific name Muscipeta vieillotii d’Orbigny, 1839 (= syn. Pyrrhomyias cinnamomea); Gr. -οιδης -oidēs resembling (Pyrrhomyias).
Quote:
vielloti
Original spelling of specific name Trochilus vieilloti Shaw, 1812 (= subsp. Mellisuga minima).
Quote:
viellotinus
Louis Pierre Vieillot (1748-1830) French naturalist, collector; ex “Petit Malfini” of de Buffon (Sonnini ed.) 1800-1802 (syn. Accipiter striatus).
Harmony rules!
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Egg id in St. Louis, MO Eggplanto Bird Identification Q&A 2 Monday 10th May 2010 05:44
Hello from St. Louis, MO! ceibatree Say Hello 11 Thursday 11th January 2007 21:00
Hello from St. Louis Mark Mittleman Say Hello 11 Saturday 2nd September 2006 15:27
Hello from Jean-Pierre,in Québec, Canada Jean-Pierre Say Hello 4 Saturday 31st July 2004 14:00
Hello from Pierre ps11aj Say Hello 9 Sunday 12th October 2003 21:47



Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.23356795 seconds with 34 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 09:34.