Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (3 Viewers)

fangsheath · Jul 30, 2005

My problem with skepticism is that people who often profess to be skeptics are not. As I said, withering skepticism was applied to sightings over the years. Where was the skepticism when it came to the dogma of extinction? Being a skeptic means questioning everything, but particularly yourself.

There is no such thing as "scientific proof." Those who speak of such are no skeptics in my book. There is always room for doubt. Fielding Lewis provided photos of ivory-bills. Are they proof? Hardly. They are evidence. Eventually each of us has to make his own judgment about how ambiguous the evidence is. It is all a matter of degree, a matter of doubt. People who saw the bird, clearly, doubt themselves! We never have certainty. We have working hypotheses. My working hypothesis is that a breeding population of ivory-bills exists in eastern Arkansas. Every day I am weighing the evidence and giving the alternatives their due.

fangsheath · Jul 30, 2005

Interviews with Jerome Jackson and Tim Gallagher can be found at the link below. Perhaps this will give some a clearer idea of Dr. Jackson's point of view. He makes a statement that I find revealing at one point: "We're not questioning what those people thought they saw, but we can't know what they actually saw without some kind of proof." Notice that Jackson is described as a "skeptic." What I find even more pertinent is the interviewer's question to Gallagher about whether he was "too harsh" in comparing the dogma of ivory-bill extinction to those of the tenets of fundamentalist religions. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, don't they? This is classic. The claim that the bird is extinct is declared "ordinary." The claim that it isn't is "extraordinary." Instantly we have set up a convenient double standard for evidence, favoring one hypothesis over another, yet we are supposedly "skeptical." Suddenly the rigors of science are not good enough, the bar must be raised to some unspecified level, because we are looking for the "extraordinary." Meanwhile, we should cling to a romantic notion of a magnificent bird that could not adapt to the alteration of its environment, an idea that is based on what evidence, again? Why, we don't need any, it is the "ordinary" claim, and we can't prove a negative anyway, all we have to do is sit back and poo-poo every sighting. Got a photo? Why, that can be faked, especially in this digital age.

http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=05-P13-00030&segmentID=1

jurek · Jul 30, 2005

fangsheath said:
After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, don't they? This is classic. The claim that the bird is extinct is declared "ordinary." The claim that it isn't is "extraordinary." Instantly we have set up a convenient double standard for evidence, favoring one hypothesis over another, yet we are supposedly "skeptical."

Very true!

fangsheath said:
Suddenly the rigors of science are not good enough, the bar must be raised to some unspecified level, because we are looking for the "extraordinary."

Again I agree! Video is nice additional proof. But it is wrong to claim that video or similar proof is necessary, or look only at video ignoring sight record and tapes.

There are several sight reports made by several experienced and reputable ornithologists and well described. This is perfectly good evidence and always have been! There are additional tape recordings of calls. And poor video on top of them.

Earlier records were considered unsafe because people were not familiar with birds, single person very emotionately involved in ivorybill search so with possibility of wishful thinking, or because they decided to keep location secret so possibility of the hoax could not be checked. They were already very harsh, too harsh criteria.

fangsheath · Jul 30, 2005

I might also point out Gallagher's reference to the American Ornithologists' Union meeting next month, at which acoustic evidence will apparently be presented. I am of course anxiously awaiting the recordings; if I read some of the accounts correctly, quite a few double-taps have been recorded as well as some vocalizations.

humminbird · Jul 31, 2005

I would simply ask, how many Bird Records Committees have been considered too liberal because they accepted verbal records for birds not expected in that area without demanding video evidence? Has the bar indeed been raised? Or is it simply being reinforced?
Personally, I accept the evidence presented by Gallagher et al. I simply wonder if those of us who accept it aren't in fact asking that we lower the standard?

Mark
Bastrop, TX

Larry Lade · Aug 1, 2005

I have just heard via the "grapevine" that the paper challenging the claim of rediscovering the Ivory-billed Woodpecker has been WITHDRAWN. Apparently, the challegers have been supplied with some audio of the bird in question and have concluded that the bird was in fact an Ivory-billed Woodpecer.

fangsheath · Aug 1, 2005

I think someone alluded to the fact before that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, as a very general rule we should accept a simultaneous sighting by two experienced birders if they are reasonably sure of what they saw. In that sense I don't think the CLO has lowered the standard here. But in another sense I think they have, and I couldn't be more delighted. That is, they are going back and more seriously looking at sightings in the past that have NOT been made by experienced birders, and I think they are taking new sightings much more seriously. We have lost habitat because sightings were not sufficiently followed up on in the past. Hopefully that is now at an end.

choupique1 · Aug 1, 2005

maybe,,, just maybe.... the "search team" kept a few things close to the vest.. and for good reason(s). even at this time...

curunir · Aug 1, 2005

choupique1 said:
maybe,,, just maybe.... the "search team" kept a few things close to the vest.. and for good reason(s). even at this time...

It does happen. Could be there's an IBWO close to some easily accessed road but a place that nobody would ever bird. I know that CALTRANS had a Marbled Murrelet nest within one hundred yards of a busy highway. Nobody would have noticed if it weren't for construction going on at the site.

fangsheath · Aug 2, 2005

Just in case no one but me reads the NY Times, today there is an article not only mentioning the withdrawal of the paper by Prum et al., but strong evidence from the sound recordings of a pair of ivory-bills interacting at White River NWR.

www.nytimes.com

gws · Aug 2, 2005

fangsheath said:
Just in case no one but me reads the NY Times, today there is an article not only mentioning the withdrawal of the paper by Prum et al., but strong evidence from the sound recordings of a pair of ivory-bills interacting at White River NWR.

www.nytimes.com

Breed, you beautiful, wonderful creatures. And a long, long life to you!

p.s. and if you both have red crests, go find some of your kind with a black crest. They are out there.

gws · Aug 2, 2005

I was reading Tanner's book on ivorybills this past weekend. In one of his concluding chapters, he expressed the thought that inbreeding may not be much of a factor with ivorybills. Hope he is right, and think he is.

These are truly miracle birds, and I really draw some inspiration from them.

JTF · Aug 2, 2005

I not convinced they found the ivory based on the evidence provided at this time.

Pinewood · Aug 2, 2005

Check this article just published by the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/01/s...b75ef678d3eb13&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
Even former skeptics are agreeing that there is a pair of ivory billed woodpeckers in Arkansas.
From the article:
"The thrilling new sound recordings provide clear and convincing evidence that the ivory-billed woodpecker is not extinct," Dr. Prum said in a statement.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood

P.S. I had the wrong url for a minute.

tsiya · Aug 2, 2005

Secret Places

There are still places within 20 miles of here that I have never reached in over 50 years of rambling. The terrain is something you must see. I believe the area of Arkansas involved is similar, you do not just take a casual walk in the forest. 150 feet East of my back door, you need a machete and a compass, or GPS, and a pair of good snake boots. I can believe that the birds have survived, and that with luck the recent sightings are of birds pushed out of more remote areas by expanding population. About 35 years ago there was a possible sighting of Ivory Bills about 50 miles west, near Starke, Florida, in the Camp Blanding Military Reservation. This is another large and rugged area. Although the land is flat, the palmettos and scrub are often so thick that you can't move quietly. If the birds are cautious anyway, they would be very hard to approach.
Keep your fingers crossed for luck, folks, this could be really great news!
http://photobucket.com/albums/v244/tsiya/

johnnydr87 · Aug 2, 2005

Here's the 1935 recording (for a taste of what might be): http://www.fws.gov/ivorybill/images/IBW-audio.wav

tsiya · Aug 2, 2005

Hey, Johnny, you have a front row seat. Chase a couple down this way if you find some extra, I'll take care of them! Do you have any map coordinates for the area of the sighting?

johnnydr87 · Aug 2, 2005

tsiya said:
Hey, Johnny, you have a front row seat. Chase a couple down this way if you find some extra, I'll take care of them! Do you have any map coordinates for the area of the sighting?

I'm from the same place as Gene Sparling, the guy who first reported the bird to the ornithologists. I'm in the Ouachita Mountains, quite a distance from the sighting....

johnnydr87 · Aug 2, 2005

Someone posted this link earlier....NASA imagery of the Cache Wildlife Refuge:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=16896

tsiya · Aug 2, 2005

The Ivorybill website has pulled access to a lot of info, I imagine they are getting swamped with requests. We have similar habitat around here, I guess I will just keep sitting in the swamp, who knows? The developers are going crazy with the bulldozers here, no way to stop them.

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