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Crows in Thailand

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Old Saturday 25th August 2018, 14:10   #1
Aladdin
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Crows in Thailand

Dear members and bird watchers

In Thailand we have the Slender-billed Crow and the Large-billed Crow. I have the book:

“A Field Guide to the Birds of Thailand and South East Asia” by Craig Robson The description in the book as per below:

The Slender-billed Crow similar to the Large-billed crow but slimmer with shorter, squarer-ended tail. The Large-billed have a steep forehead.

The Crow on the attached pictures have a flat forehead (At least I think so) so I have put it down as a Slender-billed Crow

Is that correct?

Kind regards
Aladdin
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Old Saturday 25th August 2018, 14:46   #2
Grahame Walbridge
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In Thailand there are two forms of Large-billed Crow (HBW) C.macrorynchus or Large-billed Crow and Eastern Jungle Crow (IOC) C.levaillantii depending on which taxonomy you choose to follow.

https://www.hbw.com/species/large-bi...-macrorhynchos

http://www.worldbirdnames.org/bow/crows/

BCST Checklist follows IOC.

Slender-billed Crow is out of range and does not occur.

Your images are not very helpful-where were they taken?

Grahame

Last edited by Grahame Walbridge : Saturday 25th August 2018 at 15:14.
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Old Saturday 25th August 2018, 21:59   #3
Aladdin
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Cheers

They were taken in Chantaburi, SE Thailand yesterday

How I came to the conclusion that it is a Slender-billed.

I attach 2 previous pictures taken in Bangkok
Picture 1: Step forehead and I had identified this as a Large-billed
Picture 2: Flat headed and I have identified this as a Slender-billed

Kind regards
Aladdin
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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 01:24   #4
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Aladdin,

The only crow in Bangkok is the split Eastern Jungle Crow - using the IOC taxonomy. Large-billed would be up North near the border.

In terms of your picture 2 of the "Flat headed" one that you id'd as a Slender-billed - to me in the photo it looks like the bird has some sort of deformity or healed injury with a caved-in skull
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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 04:27   #5
Grahame Walbridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viator View Post
Aladdin,

The only crow in Bangkok is the split Eastern Jungle Crow - using the IOC taxonomy. Large-billed would be up North near the border.
The OP is an Eastern Jungle Crow which is widespread in Thailand (W, NW, NE & C) south to the C Peninsula. Large-billed's range lies to the south NOT 'up North near the border.'

Grahame

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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 07:05   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahame Walbridge View Post
The OP is an Eastern Jungle Crow which is widespread in Thailand (W, NW, NE & C) south to the C Peninsula. Large-billed's range lies to the south NOT 'up North near the border.'

Grahame
Hi Grahame,

I thought in addition to C. m. macrorhynchus in the far sth i.e. down the Peninsula towards the Malaysian border, C. m. colonorum was present in the far nth tracking the Mekong across the top of the country and surrounds. IOC has colonorum in the range "c and s China, Taiwan, Hainan I. (off se China) and n Indochina". n indochina normally incorporating nth Thailand and the surrounding countries. In which case I should have said up north or down south :-) rather than what I said.
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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 07:44   #7
Grahame Walbridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viator View Post
Hi Grahame,

I thought in addition to C. m. macrorhynchus in the far sth i.e. down the Peninsula towards the Malaysian border, C. m. colonorum was present in the far nth tracking the Mekong across the top of the country and surrounds. IOC has colonorum in the range "c and s China, Taiwan, Hainan I. (off se China) and n Indochina". n indochina normally incorporating nth Thailand and the surrounding countries. In which case I should have said up north or down south :-) rather than what I said.
Your assumption that N Indochina includes N. Thailand is incorrect, in this instance, it refers to N.Myanmar, N.Laos, NW and E Tonkin. AFAIK colonorum does not occur in Thailand; its not listed by Deignan.

Grahame

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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 09:58   #8
Aladdin
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Dear Viator

Quote:
Originally Posted by viator View Post
Aladdin,

The only crow in Bangkok is the split Eastern Jungle Crow - using the IOC taxonomy. Large-billed would be up North near the border.

In terms of your picture 2 of the "Flat headed" one that you id'd as a Slender-billed - to me in the photo it looks like the bird has some sort of deformity or healed injury with a caved-in skull
Dear Viator

The Flat headed was taken in Bangkok. And the flat headed in the first post was taken in Chanthaburi yesterday when I was on the river looking at the Bhraminy Kites. The river is full of the kites, a recommended trip

Anyway, I saw quite a few crows on the River in Chanthaburi, border to Cambodia and they were all flat headed

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Old Sunday 26th August 2018, 16:24   #9
Grahame Walbridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
Dear Viator

The Flat headed was taken in Bangkok. And the flat headed in the first post was taken in Chanthaburi yesterday when I was on the river looking at the Bhraminy Kites. The river is full of the kites, a recommended trip

Anyway, I saw quite a few crows on the River in Chanthaburi, border to Cambodia and they were all flat headed

Kind regards
Aladdin
They are all Eastern Jungle Crows, posture varies according to whether they raise or lower the crown feathers!

Must I repeat Slender-billed Crow C.enca does not and never has occurred in Thailand.

Grahame
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Old Monday 27th August 2018, 08:52   #10
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Interesting, thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahame Walbridge View Post
They are all Eastern Jungle Crows, posture varies according to whether they raise or lower the crown feathers!

Must I repeat Slender-billed Crow C.enca does not and never has occurred in Thailand.

Grahame
Thank you Grahame

That was interesting information with the "crown feathers" For sure not making it any easier to identify the crows that I have a very hard time with.

If you don't mind, picture #1 was taken on Sri Lanka and I have identified it as a Large-billed crow, is that correct?

The second picture, head only. Taken in Bangkok. Is this a Eastern Jungle Crow?

Hope you don't mind
Kind regards
Aladdin
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Old Monday 27th August 2018, 10:47   #11
Grahame Walbridge
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Assuming you follow IOC
1. Indian Jungle Crow C.culminatus
2. Eastern Jungle Crow C.levaillantii

The splits follow Rasmussen & Anderson (2005) and a largely based on differences in vocalisations, the main call-types of each being highly distinctive https://www.xeno-canto.org/article/109

HBW currently lump all forms under Large-billed Crow C.macrorhynchos preferring to wait for further evidence while recognising there are likely to be future splits.

Grahame
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Old Monday 27th August 2018, 11:50   #12
Aladdin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahame Walbridge View Post
Assuming you follow IOC
1. Indian Jungle Crow C.culminatus
2. Eastern Jungle Crow C.levaillantii

The splits follow Rasmussen & Anderson (2005) and a largely based on differences in vocalisations, the main call-types of each being highly distinctive https://www.xeno-canto.org/article/109

HBW currently lump all forms under Large-billed Crow C.macrorhynchos preferring to wait for further evidence while recognising there are likely to be future splits.

Grahame
Cheers Grahame

They call them all Large-billed. Attached is one from India that I spotted in Sundarbans when I was looking for tigers.

I see that the Jungle crow is divided in to 3 different

Large-billed crow, Corvus macrorhynchos

Eastern jungle crow, Corvus levaillantii

Indian jungle crow, Corvus culminatus

Maybe the reason for me to call all of them Large-billed, Sri Lanka and India and they call them all Jungle crow. But they are like you say, lumped under Large-billed Crow

Very frustrating, just as i (think) I have found a way to identify the crows they change it all

I guess it is like with the Stonechat, split in to 3 and they all look the same, very confusing. And they are just calling them Stonechats as well

I will follow you, Indian Jungle Crow and Eastern Jungle. I have spent hours to update my records and rename my pictures today

Thank you very much for your time, interesting
Aladdin
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