Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Discover the ZEISS Digital Nature Hub

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

S.E. Florida - Odd looking warbler ID needed

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 14:27   #1
Zackiedawg
Registered User
 
Zackiedawg's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,030
S.E. Florida - Odd looking warbler ID needed

While out yesterday re-locating my golden-winged warbler that I had gotten blurry ID shots of the week before (happily I did relocate the bird and got some better shots this time)...I shot a few other warblers hanging out in the same batch of trees - one which I immediately ID'd as a yellow-rumped warbler on scene because I saw a noticeable yellow-square patch at the base of the tail, upon closer inspection of the photos, looks a bit odd. The white patch behind and below the eye and flecks of white on the top of the head and sides of the wing threw me, and I couldn't come up with a match in any of the bird guides. I have no idea if this could be some morph, phase, or hybrid, or if it's not a yellow-rumped at all. Any help appreciated:

http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg/imag...4/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg/imag...5/original.jpg
__________________
Justin Miller

Zackiedawg's Photography Gallery
Zackiedawg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 15:19   #2
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham, UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 19,571
Looks like a Yellow-rumped Warbler with slight leucism around the face.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 17:00   #3
Zackiedawg
Registered User
 
Zackiedawg's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,030
Thanks Andy. That's sort of what I was thinking too - I've never seen a partial leucistic warbler...but everything else seemed to be clearly yellow-rumped about him. I hoped to clarify and rule out a hybrid or mixed-breed, and to make sure it wasn't some other species I was overlooking or not finding. He was hanging out with two palm warblers, another yellow-rumped, a black-and-white warbler, and our rare sighting golden-winged warbler, all in the same tree stand.
__________________
Justin Miller

Zackiedawg's Photography Gallery
Zackiedawg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 17:09   #4
KC Foggin
Super Moderator
BF Supporter 2020
 
KC Foggin's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Myrtle Beach SC "Smiling Faces, Beautiful Places"
Posts: 283,307
Yellow-rumped for me as well. First leucistic one of this breed I've seen. Nice capture.
__________________
KC a/k/a common KC
KC Foggin is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 26th November 2018, 18:55   #5
frejaya
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Nevada
Posts: 34
Definitely looks like a yellow rumbed warbler to me, but I'm still pretty new at this!
frejaya is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 20:21   #6
Zackiedawg
Registered User
 
Zackiedawg's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,030
Thank you both. I'll go with yellow-rumped for sure, with partial leucistic feathers. First for me too with a yellow-rumped, KC. All in all, a good day yesterday with the golden-winged warbler and this guy too - I was only out birding for an hour or two!
__________________
Justin Miller

Zackiedawg's Photography Gallery
Zackiedawg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 20:48   #7
Birdbrain22
Registered User
 
Birdbrain22's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,320
I am getting more of a leucistic Cape May Warbler read on this bird.
__________________
Lifelist:651-Little Stint,Sedge Wren(finally),Red-footed Booby,Wedge-tailed Shearwater,Red-tailed Tropicbird,LB Curlew,Surfbird,Wandering Tattler,Clark's Grebe,Pygmy Nuthatch,Acorn WP,Nuttall's WP,Ferruginous Hawk,Rufous-crowned Sparrow,Anna's HB,Allen's HB,Red-breasted Sapsucker,Rock Sandpiper
Birdbrain22 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 21:03   #8
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham, UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 19,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdbrain22 View Post
I am getting more of a leucistic Cape May Warbler read on this bird.
It seems to show a weak, double wing bar rather than the bolder white smudge of Cape May?
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 21:17   #9
Zackiedawg
Registered User
 
Zackiedawg's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,030
Though not visible from these two angles on the bird, the yellow 'square' butt patch at the top of the base of the tail is very bold and obvious...it really had the yellow-rumped look from every angle except all the white bits on the face that threw me off. We certainly can have Cape Mays around here this time of year, but I was definitely thinking yellow-rumped all the way except the white. I'd love to hear any further consensus or argument one way or the other to nail it down.
__________________
Justin Miller

Zackiedawg's Photography Gallery
Zackiedawg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 22:12   #10
birdmeister
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,540
Yellow-rumped for me, too. Cape May should be either more gray or more green, not distinctly brown. I agree with Andy on the wing bars, too. Cape May's rump patch, while noticeable, should be more yellow-green and not contrasting so much with the rest of the upperparts.

The one thing I find interesting is the apparently yellowish color on the throat. Not sure if pure "Myrtle" subspecies can show that.
birdmeister is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 22:21   #11
Birdbrain22
Registered User
 
Birdbrain22's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
It seems to show a weak, double wing bar rather than the bolder white smudge of Cape May?
Not all show that bold white smudge you refer to especially in Fall and first winter birds and females. Take a look at some of the pics in the attached Audubon site(scroll down to the gallery). Cape Mays vary greatly in the fall(age, sex). Plus this bird looks like it has some color throughout the breast and throat on my screen which YR should not.

https://www.audubon.org/field-guide/...pe-may-warbler

I can see it as a first winter Cape May...
__________________
Lifelist:651-Little Stint,Sedge Wren(finally),Red-footed Booby,Wedge-tailed Shearwater,Red-tailed Tropicbird,LB Curlew,Surfbird,Wandering Tattler,Clark's Grebe,Pygmy Nuthatch,Acorn WP,Nuttall's WP,Ferruginous Hawk,Rufous-crowned Sparrow,Anna's HB,Allen's HB,Red-breasted Sapsucker,Rock Sandpiper
Birdbrain22 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 22:23   #12
Birdbrain22
Registered User
 
Birdbrain22's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zackiedawg View Post
Though not visible from these two angles on the bird, the yellow 'square' butt patch at the top of the base of the tail is very bold and obvious...it really had the yellow-rumped look from every angle except all the white bits on the face that threw me off. We certainly can have Cape Mays around here this time of year, but I was definitely thinking yellow-rumped all the way except the white. I'd love to hear any further consensus or argument one way or the other to nail it down.
Look at the pics in the link...yellow rump on the Cape Mays are very visible as well.
__________________
Lifelist:651-Little Stint,Sedge Wren(finally),Red-footed Booby,Wedge-tailed Shearwater,Red-tailed Tropicbird,LB Curlew,Surfbird,Wandering Tattler,Clark's Grebe,Pygmy Nuthatch,Acorn WP,Nuttall's WP,Ferruginous Hawk,Rufous-crowned Sparrow,Anna's HB,Allen's HB,Red-breasted Sapsucker,Rock Sandpiper
Birdbrain22 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 22:29   #13
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham, UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 19,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdbrain22 View Post
Not all show that bold white smudge you refer to especially in Fall and first winter birds and females. Take a look at some of the pics in the attached Audubon site(scroll down to the gallery). Cape Mays vary greatly in the fall(age, sex). Plus this bird looks like it has some color throughout the breast and throat on my screen which YR should not.

https://www.audubon.org/field-guide/...pe-may-warbler

I can see it as a first winter Cape May...
But none seem to show the double wing bar?
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 22:32   #14
Birdbrain22
Registered User
 
Birdbrain22's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdmeister View Post
Yellow-rumped for me, too. Cape May should be either more gray or more green, not distinctly brown. I agree with Andy on the wing bars, too. Cape May's rump patch, while noticeable, should be more yellow-green and not contrasting so much with the rest of the upperparts.

The one thing I find interesting is the apparently yellowish color on the throat. Not sure if pure "Myrtle" subspecies can show that.
Cape Mays can certainly be brownish in fall, especially on first year birds. Cape Mays show that color throughout the breast/throat.

I personally still see it as a Cape May...

As a side question... how does one multiquote numerous responses?
__________________
Lifelist:651-Little Stint,Sedge Wren(finally),Red-footed Booby,Wedge-tailed Shearwater,Red-tailed Tropicbird,LB Curlew,Surfbird,Wandering Tattler,Clark's Grebe,Pygmy Nuthatch,Acorn WP,Nuttall's WP,Ferruginous Hawk,Rufous-crowned Sparrow,Anna's HB,Allen's HB,Red-breasted Sapsucker,Rock Sandpiper
Birdbrain22 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 26th November 2018, 23:37   #15
dantheman
Bah humbug
 
dantheman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 13,957
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdbrain22 View Post
Look at the pics in the link...yellow rump on the Cape Mays are very visible as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdbrain22 View Post

As a side question... how does one multiquote numerous responses?
Middle icon on bottom right hand side of posts when replying - click on the posts you want to multiquote (they go red with a '+'), then hit the left hand 'quote' button ...

__________________
stithiansreservoirbirding.blogspot.co.uk/ - last update 10/11/15 - really rather remarkable still!!!
dantheman is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 27th November 2018, 00:05   #16
ovenbird43
Registered User
 
ovenbird43's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ocean Springs, MS
Posts: 2,042
I think this is more likely a Yellow-rumped Warbler. I think some of the apparent yellowish wash to the throat and breast may be an effect of lighting/reflection - the real yellow shows through as a typical Yellow-rumped flank patch. it's hard to truly rule out Cape May with such an odd bird, but everything to me screams Yellow-rumped rather than Cape May - I would expect a Cape May with such a bright rump to also have a brighter (and more uniformly colored) breast and face (where not instead white). And let's consider probability - while a few Cape Mays do winter in extreme southern Florida, Yellow-rumped is FAR FAR more common.
ovenbird43 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 27th November 2018, 01:39   #17
jmorlan
Hmmm. That's funny -- Opus Editor
 
jmorlan's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Pacifica
Posts: 2,862
It is undoubtedly a Yellow-rumped (Myrtle) Warbler. Cape May has a shorter tail, thinner bill and different ventral pattern. On a side note, "leucism" is properly applied to birds or animals with normal plumage that is dilute overall. Birds with patches of pure white are better termed "partial albino." Geneticists may cringe at that but there is no better plain language term available. Or you could go with "partial amelanistic." Ugh!
__________________
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt
jmorlan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 27th November 2018, 08:34   #18
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 21,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorlan View Post
On a side note, "leucism" is properly applied to birds or animals with normal plumage that is dilute overall. Birds with patches of pure white are better termed "partial albino." Geneticists may cringe at that but there is no better plain language term available. Or you could go with "partial amelanistic." Ugh!
Red rag to some bulls, but I agree 100%
Nutcracker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 27th November 2018, 08:56   #19
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham, UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 19,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorlan View Post
It is undoubtedly a Yellow-rumped (Myrtle) Warbler. Cape May has a shorter tail, thinner bill and different ventral pattern. On a side note, "leucism" is properly applied to birds or animals with normal plumage that is dilute overall. Birds with patches of pure white are better termed "partial albino." Geneticists may cringe at that but there is no better plain language term available. Or you could go with "partial amelanistic." Ugh!
Seems not to be true according to people who know more than me.

'Leucism (/ˈluːsɪzəm, -kɪz-/)[1][2][3] is a condition in which there is partial loss of pigmentation in an animal resulting in white, pale, or patchy coloration of the skin, hair, feathers, scales or cuticle, but not the eyes.[3] It is occasionally spelled leukism. Unlike albinism, it is caused by a reduction in multiple types of pigment, not just melanin.'

Leucism is a general term for the phenotype resulting from defects in pigment cell differentiation and/or migration from the neural crest to skin, hair, or feathers during development. This results in either the entire surface (if all pigment cells fail to develop) or patches of body surface (if only a subset are defective) having a lack of cells capable of making pigment.
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Tuesday 27th November 2018 at 09:28.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 27th November 2018, 14:53   #20
Zackiedawg
Registered User
 
Zackiedawg's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,030
This little bird has become quite the interesting find - heartening to see that others are not easily nailing down the ID, so I don't feel so feeble in not being able to figure it out myself. Between the Cape May and Yellow-rumped, it seems the yellow-rumpeds are slightly in the lead...as for leucistic or partial albino, whichever is the more accurate term I'll accept, as we've at least identified the odd white bits to not be part of a pattern of some other species I couldn't figure out, but an anomaly causing this bird to be a more difficult on-scene identification.
I will post this bird on my local Audubon site as well to see if any other local birders have additional opinions on it.
__________________
Justin Miller

Zackiedawg's Photography Gallery
Zackiedawg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 27th November 2018, 23:23   #21
jmorlan
Hmmm. That's funny -- Opus Editor
 
jmorlan's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Pacifica
Posts: 2,862
Leucism

Depends on sources.

Here is Sibley's take: http://www.sibleyguides.com/2011/08/...nin-reduction/

I have the 1985 edition of "A Dictionary of Birds" edited by Campbell and Lack. An entry by C.J.O. Harrison lists the following types of abnormal plumage:

Abnormal Pigmentation, Atypical pigmentation, Schizochroism, Pigment replacement, Gynandromorphs, Pigment deficiency, Pattern variations, and Feather structure abnormalities.

The following appears in the discussion under "Atypical pigmentation:"

"Partial loss of pigment, affecting all the colours present and reducing them in intensity, is rare. It is called 'dilution' by bird breeders and 'leucism' in scientific writings, although the latter term is also used at times for various forms of schizochroic loss (see below) of single pigments which make the plumage appear paler...."

So defined, the phenomenon of true leucism (dilution of all pigments) is much rarer than schizochroism (involving a loss or dilution of only some pigments), so "leucistic" should probably be used rarely, and not merely as a jargon replacement for the more popular vernacular "partial albino."

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Seems not to be true according to people who know more than me.

'Leucism (/ˈluːsɪzəm, -kɪz-/)[1][2][3] is a condition in which there is partial loss of pigmentation in an animal resulting in white, pale, or patchy coloration of the skin, hair, feathers, scales or cuticle, but not the eyes.[3] It is occasionally spelled leukism. Unlike albinism, it is caused by a reduction in multiple types of pigment, not just melanin.'

Leucism is a general term for the phenotype resulting from defects in pigment cell differentiation and/or migration from the neural crest to skin, hair, or feathers during development. This results in either the entire surface (if all pigment cells fail to develop) or patches of body surface (if only a subset are defective) having a lack of cells capable of making pigment.
__________________
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt
jmorlan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 28th November 2018, 10:08   #22
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham, UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 19,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorlan View Post
Depends on sources.

Here is Sibley's take: http://www.sibleyguides.com/2011/08/...nin-reduction/

I have the 1985 edition of "A Dictionary of Birds" edited by Campbell and Lack. An entry by C.J.O. Harrison lists the following types of abnormal plumage:

Abnormal Pigmentation, Atypical pigmentation, Schizochroism, Pigment replacement, Gynandromorphs, Pigment deficiency, Pattern variations, and Feather structure abnormalities.

The following appears in the discussion under "Atypical pigmentation:"

"Partial loss of pigment, affecting all the colours present and reducing them in intensity, is rare. It is called 'dilution' by bird breeders and 'leucism' in scientific writings, although the latter term is also used at times for various forms of schizochroic loss (see below) of single pigments which make the plumage appear paler...."

So defined, the phenomenon of true leucism (dilution of all pigments) is much rarer than schizochroism (involving a loss or dilution of only some pigments), so "leucistic" should probably be used rarely, and not merely as a jargon replacement for the more popular vernacular "partial albino."
I'm not really qualified to take this any further so I'll leave you with this though I do agree that we are limited by often conflicting sources however, some terms have come in to usage through non qualified people such as amateur aviculturists, I think 'partial albino' may be onу one those terms?

'The term "partial albino" is sometimes used in the literature, however, it has been stated that "A common misnomer is ‘partial albino’ – this is not possible since albinism affects the whole plumage of a bird, not just part"[12] and the definition of albinism precludes the possibility of "partial albinism" in which a mostly white bird shows some form of melanin pigmentation. "It is simply impossible, just like being ‘partially pregnant’ ".
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Wednesday 28th November 2018 at 10:11.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 28th November 2018, 15:24   #23
jmorlan
Hmmm. That's funny -- Opus Editor
 
jmorlan's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Pacifica
Posts: 2,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
I'm not really qualified to take this any further so I'll leave you with this though I do agree that we are limited by often conflicting sources however, some terms have come in to usage through non qualified people such as amateur aviculturists, I think 'partial albino' may be onу one those terms?

'The term "partial albino" is sometimes used in the literature, however, it has been stated that "A common misnomer is ‘partial albino’ – this is not possible since albinism affects the whole plumage of a bird, not just part"[12] and the definition of albinism precludes the possibility of "partial albinism" in which a mostly white bird shows some form of melanin pigmentation. "It is simply impossible, just like being ‘partially pregnant’ ".
I believe that quote originates with Paul Buckley. When there is an inherent conflict between being correct and being understood, I much prefer being understood. Everybody knows what "partial albino" means. Very few know what "leucistic" actually means.
__________________
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt
jmorlan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 28th November 2018, 18:48   #24
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham, UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 19,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorlan View Post
I believe that quote originates with Paul Buckley. When there is an inherent conflict between being correct and being understood, I much prefer being understood. Everybody knows what "partial albino" means. Very few know what "leucistic" actually means.
I hadn't heard of Paul Buckley but have just Googled him.

Seems to me from your quote that he rather patronisingly 'dumbed down' the word leucistic for us lesser mortals lest we be too dim to understand it and in providing this quote, you seem to have disproved your point? As the saying goes 'hoisted by your own petarde'..........

I think most regular, modern biders, know what leucistic means.
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Wednesday 28th November 2018 at 19:01.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 28th November 2018, 21:44   #25
jmorlan
Hmmm. That's funny -- Opus Editor
 
jmorlan's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Pacifica
Posts: 2,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
I hadn't heard of Paul Buckley but have just Googled him.

Seems to me from your quote that he rather patronisingly 'dumbed down' the word leucistic for us lesser mortals lest we be too dim to understand it and in providing this quote, you seem to have disproved your point? As the saying goes 'hoisted by your own petarde'..........

I think most regular, modern biders, know what leucistic means.
Not my quote, but yours. Most modern birders think leucistic means the same thing as "partial albino." It does not.
__________________
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt
jmorlan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hawk ID, various warbler IDs needed - South Florida Zackiedawg Bird Identification Q&A 5 Monday 19th January 2015 22:10
S. Florida migrants - warbler type IDs needed! Zackiedawg Bird Identification Q&A 10 Tuesday 16th September 2014 21:13
South Florida warbler-like IDs needed Zackiedawg Bird Identification Q&A 2 Sunday 13th October 2013 22:52
Hummingbird, warbler IDs needed - South Florida Zackiedawg Bird Identification Q&A 5 Monday 22nd October 2012 19:33
Warbler id needed-SW.Florida gatormom Bird Identification Q&A 1 Thursday 20th September 2007 01:20



Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.18374705 seconds with 37 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 21:55.