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UK Duck ID Help required

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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 18:49   #1
robski
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UK Duck ID Help required

http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/...cat/500/page/1

A shot posted in the gallery which seems to be a bit of a puzzle.

A diving duck seen with a small group of tuffies on a gravel pit lake in Kent.

Many thanks Rob
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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 18:54   #2
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That is certainly an odd bird. Not a Scaup, but I suspect some sort of hybrid, the experts will be along soon to speculate further.
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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 18:58   #3
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Mallard x ?
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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 19:03   #4
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Not a Baikal teal in eclipse plumage...?
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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 19:05   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robski
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/...cat/500/page/1

A shot posted in the gallery which seems to be a bit of a puzzle.

A diving duck seen with a small group of tuffies on a gravel pit lake in Kent.

Many thanks Rob
I'd have a punt at Mallard x Pochard; the v fine grey vermiculations and black in the bill seem to ghost the latter species. The baikal teal vertical line on the face is a recessive character which sometimes pops up in hybrid ducks (e.g teal x pintail..)

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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 19:40   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewis20126
I'd have a punt at Mallard x Pochard; the v fine grey vermiculations and black in the bill seem to ghost the latter species. The baikal teal vertical line on the face is a recessive character which sometimes pops up in hybrid ducks (e.g teal x pintail..)

Alan
Nice detective work, Alan. I'll buy that. I was getting hung up on Tufty and worrying about Gadwall but your idea fits much better. Hopefully Joern will be along soon to confirm. Whatever it is, it is definitely a hybrid between a dabbler with a speculum and an aythya.
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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 19:53   #7
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Not too dissimilar, but then the other suggestions are probably more likely to be correct...
http://www.surfbirds.com/media/Photo...allbaikal1.jpg
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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 20:45   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colonelboris
Not a Baikal teal in eclipse plumage...?
I'd say Baikal Teal is in the gene pool.
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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 21:20   #9
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Neither Baikal nor Blue-winged nor any other species showing this facial crescent need be involved in parentage for this feature to show in a hybrid. This crescent is, as Lewis said, a recessive feature expressed in a number of hybrids of, for example, Common Teal x Pintail. I don't have it here to scan but in the week-by-week five volume encyclopedia of Birds published by Orbis in the late seventies there was an excellent article on wildfowl hybirdisation which covered this, which gave me my first insights into genetics. Now here comes Joern to declare it is a Baikal hybrid despite that!

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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 22:29   #10
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I'm gonna go for a Gadwall x Mallard (but i'm not sure why!)

C'mon Joern, what is it?

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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 22:51   #11
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Seems it has you all stumped - I must admit teal was going through my head when I was taking the shots. But after looking at the Collins Guide I was completely lost.

A couple of different views to help or confuse more.
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Last edited by robski : Sunday 25th February 2007 at 23:04.
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Old Sunday 25th February 2007, 23:17   #12
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My initial reaction was something like Common Teal x Pochard. I still think, after seeing the 2nd set of pictures, that this is as good a guess as any. Common Teal certainly seems to be one of the parents...

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Old Monday 26th February 2007, 06:21   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterntwisted
Neither Baikal nor Blue-winged nor any other species showing this facial crescent need be involved in parentage for this feature to show in a hybrid. This crescent is, as Lewis said, a recessive feature expressed in a number of hybrids of, for example, Common Teal x Pintail. I don't have it here to scan but in the week-by-week five volume encyclopedia of Birds published by Orbis in the late seventies there was an excellent article on wildfowl hybirdisation which covered this, which gave me my first insights into genetics. Now here comes Joern to declare it is a Baikal hybrid despite that!

Graham
I am only going to say it looks good for an Aythya x Anas hybrid. and look at the head shape when the bird rears for the wing flap- that makes the option of Common Teal for the Anas part likely. But beyond that?

I always find the Aythya x Anas hybrids really difficult. I´ll try to have a closer look onto that one to figure it out...
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Old Monday 26th February 2007, 09:06   #14
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The duck certainly has a look of teal about it. How big was it compared to the tufties rob?
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Old Monday 26th February 2007, 10:15   #15
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Based on little concrete and without knowing jot about genetics and hybridisation, I can see teal and pochard in there.

Hybrids of this kind are fascinating, and makes me wish I had a better scientific base to understand it fully.
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Old Monday 26th February 2007, 11:36   #16
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Still not easier,
but there something just to show and compare: Other Anas x Aythya:

http://www.pbase.com/image/42152590

http://www.pbase.com/image/70683200

http://www.pbase.com/image/70389931

I am not sure what those above are, but could be gadwall x canvasback. you also see bridling in these (the stripe going down the cheeks, like in baikal teal)


http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Eu...photo95033.htm

I think the one above here could indeed be Common Pochard x mallard


http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=82494

Also faint briddling in this one from Birdpix--could indeed be pochard x pintail...but again I am not sure...

What seems strange about the bird in this thread is the darkish scapulars and back... makes one wonder if the Aythya involved couldn´t be tufted duck....
Also bill pattern resembles this probable teal x mallard, being not an unusual pattern in common teal hybrids:

http://www.tarsiger.com/index.php?pi...95038&lang=eng
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Old Monday 26th February 2007, 17:38   #17
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Really fasinating stuff - thanks for all your input.

LOL - I've had another rake through my trash can to find a shot with the tufties.

3 Ducks in the frame all I have done is shuffle them closer together because of the file limits of the forum. The mystery Duck kept very close to the female on the left.
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Old Monday 26th February 2007, 19:14   #18
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Is there not goldeneye in the head shape. Does have a strong look of teal though
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Old Monday 26th February 2007, 19:15   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robski
Really fasinating stuff - thanks for all your input.

LOL - I've had another rake through my trash can to find a shot with the tufties.

3 Ducks in the frame all I have done is shuffle them closer together because of the file limits of the forum. The mystery Duck kept very close to the female on the left.
If this photo is an accurate reflection of size, perhaps mallard is the more likely Anas parent; rather than teal? I was leaning towards teal x pochard until I saw this!
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Old Monday 26th February 2007, 19:35   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewis20126
If this photo is an accurate reflection of size, perhaps mallard is the more likely Anas parent; rather than teal? I was leaning towards teal x pochard until I saw this!
Yes all I have done is condense the image horizontally. So the female and hybrid are about the same distance from the camera. The male was a couple of feet further back.
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Old Monday 26th February 2007, 19:40   #21
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Teal x Pochard?? Looking at that head colour...
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Old Monday 26th February 2007, 19:40   #22
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Looks more Gadwall x Pochard to me.

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Old Tuesday 27th February 2007, 07:31   #23
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Yep!, I think there's a large chunk of Gadwall DNA in there, with what I don't know.
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Old Tuesday 27th February 2007, 08:31   #24
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I would doubt the Gadwall in this case,
if you go by the pale breast merging into similarly coloured flanks, this can be quite misleading...quite some hybrids of Anas x Aythya can show this...

I think a likely option is Tufted duck x Common Teal, but i don´t think that a definite ID is possible unless we look at DNA or find a similar hybrid with known parentage.
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Old Tuesday 27th February 2007, 10:36   #25
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See this collage attached for comparison

The tuft on the back of the head is very much common-teal-like,

there is some white at the tail base, indicating common teal parentage (With mallard , pintail or gadwall x Tufted duck or pochard, that area would be black)

the bill pattern of black and light coloured areas is just about the same as in some other teal hybrids (See the example with the mallard x teal)

and then there is the dark scapulars/back area...

Also size does seem to be similar to Tufted duck,so not that big-- it only looks bigger due to the rear end being raised as in dabblers ,not hold low as the diving ducks often do...
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