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Message: <blockquote data-quote="lou salomon" data-source="post: 1725786" data-attributes="member: 16268">hi rainer, others,i think menotti is right. second bird definitely is a 3cy caspian gull - it has the textbook "high heels" and slimline in body shape and bill. (etc.etc.)as for the first one i swayed a bit: looking at its bill - pointed tip, large black subterminal mark in an adult bird, it is rel. narrow (not high) and parallel edged, a bit on the short end for caspian but ok for a female. furthermore a smallish head, smallish eye and primary pattern (p10 with large all white tip and p9 with large mirror too, p5 tip unfortunately obscured by tertials), this all fits caspian gull. confusing are especially its very short and strong legs - this is quite unusual but possible for cachinnans. their colour is rosy, slightly odd too. the other thing, mentioned by andy is the stout appearing body which looks like argentatus also. it doesn't look perfect for herring gull but better than caspian. still, probably this is due to its extremely short legs and slight foreshortening effect. (btw, the described mirror sizes are in line with argentatus herring gull too).wing projection not easy to examine from this perspective but it looks long. tertial step - none.as for probability, at moment in central germany on 'main river' i'd consider both herring and caspian gull as equally frequent. we got quite many caspians all over the country these days and herring gull is not so frequent this far south (in southeastern germany (saxony) i guess there might be over 1000 caspian gulls now.due to structural inconsistancies ("fat" and short legged) it may well be a hybrid of both (enough polish individuals around) but i'd favour a slightly odd pure female type caspian. an open wing shot surely would have helped here, rainer.</blockquote>

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