2013 UK orchids (1 Viewer)

[Leifus]

Not sure how much people have heard about this but what are your thoughts on the debate on cyclical changes in Spiranthes romanzoffiana occurrence v. the possibility of a gradual extinction northwards?

 

[rmielcarek]

having had another look I think 1 is also pendula, the flower's just upside down?

I've taken the liberty to rotate Jeff's photo so I can see it better (hope you don't mind Jeff).

Is this really pendula? Not much structure to the lip as far as I can see.

Rich M

 

[leptochila]

I've taken the liberty to rotate Jeff's photo so I can see it better (hope you don't mind Jeff).

Is this really pendula? Not much structure to the lip as far as I can see.

Rich M

Yes. It is. The epichile is obscuring the view of the hypochile behind because the flower has begun to wither and close.

Mike

 

[jeffnsue]

What a good idea, Rich!

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Different crops of spike & stem.
Jeff

This is a potential hybrid, showing mixed features of BLH (allogamy, pink pedicel bases, slightly hairy ovaries) and GFH (green pendulous flowers, stubby leaves in two rows).

Sean

 

[rmielcarek]

Yes. It is. The epichile is obscuring the view of the hypochile behind because the flower has begun to wither and close.

Mike

Hi Mike

would you class this as pendula as well?

I always have lots of trouble fitting GFH into the various pigeonholes - don't see enough of them down here.

Rich

 

[GDK]

Hi Mike

would you class this as pendula as well?

I always have lots of trouble fitting GFH into the various pigeonholes - don't see enough of them down here.

Rich

Hi Rich,

pendula is usually given as a northern form, as shown in previous posts.

Your plant looks closest to what Young described as degenera to me (as the differentiation between epichile and hypochile is imperfect and weak), although vectensis is the other option that could be argued (there is some constriction and the lip is 'porrect' rather than 'reflexed' - suggesting the photo is from a southern population) .

A key is attached from:

Young, D.P. 1952. Studies in the British Epipactis III: Epipactis phyllanthes G.E. Sm., an overlooked species. IV: A revision of the phyllanthes - vectensis - pendula group; Watsonia 2, 253-276;

Note that degenera has been disputed as a form on the basis of its hard to know where to draw the line, possibly the others as well (to be fair to Young he outright states the division is artificial

Some features Young has used to define degenera in populations (not not all features may be present in all populations):

Labellum (Lip):

- incompletely differenciated (compare eg to pendula in photos above);
- degenerate, with or without median constriction;
- imperfect;

Hypochile (cup in base of lip):

- small depression in base of Labellum, embracing the stigma;
- very small;
- hemisperical;
- shallow, oval;

Epichile (tail of lip):

- cordate with two bosses;
- not constricted at the base;
- no central channel;
- cordate, much broader than hypochile, separated from it by a pair of curved ridges, 2 small bosses, green & pink edges;
- ovate, acute, median folds absent

and there are more if you read his works..!

Note also that vectensis covers some of the above descriptions as well, the key (as he defines in his key) seems to be whether you class the labellum as being in Young's words 'perfectly differenciated' (better choice of description than 'perfectly formed') as in vectensis and pendula, or not, as degenera, and in the extreme phyllanthes.

An edit to the above - To provide further info, here is the Epipactis crib adding to Youngs work that I think I posted a link on here a couple of years ago - note the subsuming of degenera into vectensis with slightly different emphasis on morphology (and addition of the other recently named forms).

 

[jeffnsue]

Sean, I am thrown into confusion by all this.

Clive and I thought there were all sorts of plants which were intermediate between BLH & DH, also BLH & GFH.

Neither Harrap nor Lang lists any form of GFH hybrid but does mention a BLH/DH hybrid having occurred in Scotland. On that evidence we dismissed the thought of any GFH hybrid though we thought there were plants which looked suspicious.
As you knw the site has large numbers of DH and GFH, with fewer but still significant numbers go BLH and we found ‘pure’ examples of each.

With these populations of plants, so close genetically, it would be a surprise if there were no hybridisation but I really don’t know where to start.

I may be out of circulation now till Friday if there’s no internet access at my Mum’s but will catch up after that.

Jeff

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Sean, I am thrown into confusion by all this.

Clive and I thought there were all sorts of plants which were intermediate between BLH & DH, also BLH & GFH.

Neither Harrap nor Lang lists any form of GFH hybrid but does mention a BLH/DH hybrid having occurred in Scotland. On that evidence we dismissed the thought of any GFH hybrid though we thought there were plants which looked suspicious.
As you knw the site has large numbers of DH and GFH, with fewer but still significant numbers go BLH and we found ‘pure’ examples of each.

With these populations of plants, so close genetically, it would be a surprise if there were no hybridisation but I really don’t know where to start.

I may be out of circulation now till Friday if there’s no internet access at my Mum’s but will catch up after that.

Jeff

Hi Jeff

The only official published. record of GFHxBLH is from Denmark, I think. There is one unpublished from Hampshire in 2010, found by GDK, which I'm happy with (and so is the BSBI referee).

For me, a few of the plants at AWCP show mixed characters and could well be hybrids.

 

[Bodhyfryd]

Yet more GFH

Recognising the danger that this forum is in danger of becoming the Alyn Waters blog at the moment, we nevertheless risk another posting on GFH. We went over to the site (for the fourth time) in company with Dylan in an attempt to get our own heads a little clearer on the GFH. We think that we can at least distinguish these from other helleborines but would appreciate more expert comment / verdict - especially as to the "var". Our best efforts - Harrap's helpful guide to the "vars" in hand - were ..

1 and 2 Pendula (?) - flowers seem to be "open" and there is a clear hypochile / epichile distinction.

3 and 4 Phyllanthes (?) - flowers hardly open and no apparent hypochile / epichile distinction; also on close inspection, white cilia on leaves.

5 ?? Degenera ??

Thanks for any enlightenment and for the patience of those who have never been near AWCP or a GFH!

Martin and Elaine

 

[childhood memories]

Cumbrian CLTs

Another wet foot day - Cumbrian CLTs not Centre Parks - quite hard to find and very boggy - but worth it

 

[leptochila]

Hi Mike

would you class this as pendula as well?

I always have lots of trouble fitting GFH into the various pigeonholes - don't see enough of them down here.

Rich

No I wouldn't Rich. I think, as Sean has shown, this plant is probably more around the degenera end of the spectrum with the hypochile and epichile barely differentiated.

My judgment of these vars (rightly or wrongly) has mostly come from looking at pictures in books where pendula and vectensis have a fully formed epichile and hypochile. In Jeff's original pic, although the view is not clear, the epichile looks like it has rough bosses on it's surface and it has curled round at its tip. The rounded shape of the hypochile behind it is also clearly visible. The differentiation between these two vars is very tenuous anyway so I prefer just put it down as pendula.

Mike

 

[jeffnsue]

Martin, I’m sure your var pendula is the same plant as mine!
Sean thinks it could be a hybrid BLH/GFH, I’m keeping an open mind on the subject, not even confident that it’s the same plant I posted in ‘full plant’ view and later as ‘spike’ & ‘stem’
May go again later this week.
Jeff

 

[Connor Rand]

Very widely open phyllanthes there. Lovely shot!

Mike

Thanks very much Mike, a couple of the plants were like that

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Martin, I’m sure your var pendula is the same plant as mine!
Sean thinks it could be a hybrid BLH/GFH, I’m keeping an open mind on the subject, not even confident that it’s the same plant I posted in ‘full plant’ view and later as ‘spike’ & ‘stem’
May go again later this week.
Jeff

It is definitely the same plant, but from a different angle.

I have pictures of it too.

I stand by my assessment. It has pink pedicel bases and for me the outer surfaces of the sepals are too dark for any phyllanthes.

My suspicion is that it is an F2 hybrid (second generation).

Sean

 

[rmielcarek]

No I wouldn't Rich. I think, as Sean has shown, this plant is probably more around the degenera end of the spectrum with the hypochile and epichile barely differentiated.

My judgment of these vars (rightly or wrongly) has mostly come from looking at pictures in books where pendula and vectensis have a fully formed epichile and hypochile. In Jeff's original pic, although the view is not clear, the epichile looks like it has rough bosses on it's surface and it has curled round at its tip. The rounded shape of the hypochile behind it is also clearly visible. The differentiation between these two vars is very tenuous anyway so I prefer just put it down as pendula.

Mike

Good Mike because I didn't think it was either!

My concern was that in Jeff's picture I still can't really see any structure on the lip - this may be because we are looking from an awkward angle.

Rich M

 

[rmielcarek]

Hi Rich,

pendula is usually given as a northern form, as shown in previous posts.

Excellent stuff Gareth. I agree it is probably a degenera and yes it is a southern plant.

Is pendula supposed to be exclusively northern? Do the two photos on the left below qualify as southern pendula, taken in the Cotswolds?

I always find it hard to work out where one form ends and another begins. The other end of the cline of lip shape, ie phyllanthes is normally quite easy - the two photos on the right.

I spent a bit of time going through all my GFH photos and will post a range of lip shapes later with my thoughts on where they fit - something for you all to look forward to

Rich M

 

[rmielcarek]

I spent a bit of time going through all my GFH photos and will post a range of lip shapes later with my thoughts on where they fit - something for you all to look forward to

Rich M

What do people make of this lot - my thoughts starting from the left;

- pendula or vectensis? south Wales;
- vectensis, south Wales;
- does this qualify as vectensis or is there insufficient structure? Hants/Surrey border;
- degenera, north Somerset, in someone's garden;
- degenera, Cotswolds

Bugger - just had a look at that Epipactis crib. I see that degenera is now put in with vectensis so I suppose all of these are vectensis then!

Rich M

 

[rmielcarek]

Recognising the danger that this forum is in danger of becoming the Alyn Waters blog at the moment, we nevertheless risk another posting on GFH. We went over to the site (for the fourth time) in company with Dylan in an attempt to get our own heads a little clearer on the GFH. We think that we can at least distinguish these from other helleborines but would appreciate more expert comment / verdict - especially as to the "var". Our best efforts - Harrap's helpful guide to the "vars" in hand - were ..

1 and 2 Pendula (?) - flowers seem to be "open" and there is a clear hypochile / epichile distinction.

3 and 4 Phyllanthes (?) - flowers hardly open and no apparent hypochile / epichile distinction; also on close inspection, white cilia on leaves.

5 ?? Degenera ??

Thanks for any enlightenment and for the patience of those who have never been near AWCP or a GFH!

Martin and Elaine

Martin

personally I'd currently put 3, 4 and 5 all down as degenera - that may change though when I've had a chance to read through the Watsonia article that Gareth linked to in post #967!

Rich M

 

[Bodhyfryd]

Martin

personally I'd currently put 3, 4 and 5 all down as degenera - that may change though when I've had a chance to read through the Watsonia article that Gareth linked to in post #967!

Rich M

Thanks for that, Rich. there seems to be a consolidation around 1,2 as "pendula" with opinion divided on 3,4,5 as between "phyllanthes" and "degenera". And of course there is Sean's hybrid possibility to be reckoned with.

We are planning to go back tomorrow (it's very local) and will have a further look. You learn a little more each time ... I think!

Martin

Edit .. on checking back, I see that it is actually our first plant (i.e. the "pendula") which Sean thinks is possibly a hybrid - same as Jeff's plant. I am sure that it will all become clear(er) eventually - although Alyn Waters seems to throw up rather a stream of surprises - pardon pun.