2013 UK orchids (1 Viewer)

[rmielcarek]

Violet helleborines

As a change from looking at photos of GFHs I went to check out a local site for Violet helleborines. Numbers this year seem to be high but most are still in bud - this was the only plant that I could find in flower.

Not sure what has happened to the pollinia here - possibly washed out by the thunderstorm we had locally on Monday.

Rich M

 

[LizandDave]

I don't really understand most of the discussion on these Helleborines, although it is interesting.

However, I went to a LNR today where there were over 30 Broad Leaved Helleborine plants and what amazed me was the huge variations in flowers.

Colours, shapes of sepals and petals, lips and the rest of it, vary a lot even on the same plant. This is to the point where you might think it's a different Epipactis.

So for me as a layman I'll settle for Epipactis helleborine for all of them.
Dave

 

[GDK]

Excellent stuff Gareth. I agree it is probably a degenera and yes it is a southern plant.

Is pendula supposed to be exclusively northern? Do the two photos on the left below qualify as southern pendula, taken in the Cotswolds?

I always find it hard to work out where one form ends and another begins. The other end of the cline of lip shape, ie phyllanthes is normally quite easy - the two photos on the right.

I spent a bit of time going through all my GFH photos and will post a range of lip shapes later with my thoughts on where they fit - something for you all to look forward to

Rich M

Hi Rich,

It is tricky to know where to draw the line! I think even when Young started looking at more and more populations he seemed less pleased with the artificial distinctions. However they seem to have survived in some form or other through to present day with the BSBI crib.

When I record populations of GFH I do not go as far as providing detail down to varieties, with the exception of var. phyllanthes as that is mostly straightforward. But it is fun to try and go that bit further for your own interest…

I don’t think Id disagree with your phyllanthes/vectensis/(degenera) photos. The phyllanthes (photo 3) looks like it has a rudimentary hypochile in the lip, but the sepals are identical so Id go with the lip being sepaliod as you have done.

For pendula vs vectensis you are looking for either :

- Young: 'reflexed (pendula) or porrect (vectensis) lip' or
- Crib: hypochile equal to epichile (pendula) or hypochile smaller than epichile (vectensis). Also less than fully differentiated lip = shouldnt be pendula

As a rule of thumb I would defer (rightly or wrongly) to the populations in the south as more likely to turn out to be vectensis and further north pendula (it would be much neater that way to think in terms of populations), but there have been populations assigned to pendula right down south and vectensis up north. Infact if you dig out some of the later volumes of Young’s studies in Epipactis I think he back tracks a bit on his pendula/vectensis - cant remember where it’s been a few years since I read it (well worth a read though for those interested in Helleborines).

So from the photos of the Gloucs plants you could probably provide an argument either way! - They are very nicely formed flowers though arent they. Ive seen GFH with reflexed and straight lipped flowers on the same plant. I would normally take an overview of the whole lot at a site, and try and pigeon hole as a population if possible.

What we need is someone to come along and build on the works undertaken and look in the kind of detail that Bateman & Denholm have recently done and are continuing with Dactylorhiza. Another article worthy of perseverance even when some of the info is a little technical!


Cheers,

 

[leptochila]

I don't really understand most of the discussion on these Helleborines, although it is interesting.

However, I went to a LNR today where there were over 30 Broad Leaved Helleborine plants and what amazed me was the huge variations in flowers.

Colours, shapes of sepals and petals, lips and the rest of it, vary a lot even on the same plant. This is to the point where you might think it's a different Epipactis.

So for me as a layman I'll settle for Epipactis helleborine for all of them.
Dave

Incredible stand of plants in pic 1! No. 4 looks like a good contender for var. chlorantha that lacks anthocyanin colouration. Have a look back at some of the recent pics posted.

Mike

 

[Gravyboy]

The marsh helleborines have finally reached their peak in N Devon. One dune slack contains 4000 flowering spikes with 100 albiflora (no ochroleuca). There are also several plants that stand out as having a lower level of pigmentation. Could albiflora back-cross to give a flower with diluted anthocyanin pigment content? or would you expect a range of purple colouration in a population? I notice Harraps' pictures vary, but are taken on different dates, so could be from different sites.

 

[LizandDave]

Green Flowered Helleborines from near Eynsford, Kent.
I pass them every other day so have been checking to see if they open up and it looks like this is the limit. So maybe they will self fertilise this year.

They are also small with the biggest plant only being about 15cm (6") tall or so. There's no colour whatsoever except green and a tiny hint of white inside the partially open flower.

Are these the same species as those mentioned above? Those above seem much bigger and more like a broad leaved helleborine in size.
Dave

 

[IJS]

Been out looking at south oxfordshire green flowered helleborines this evening. Bit dark under the beech trees but did find a fair few plants. Most were tiny, upto 6 inches, but a couple were much larger 18 inches or so. Interestingly the flowers were much more open than I have seen there before.

 

[rmielcarek]

Green Flowered Helleborines from near Eynsford, Kent.
I pass them every other day so have been checking to see if they open up and it looks like this is the limit. So maybe they will self fertilise this year.

They are also small with the biggest plant only being about 15cm (6") tall or so. There's no colour whatsoever except green and a tiny hint of white inside the partially open flower.

Are these the same species as those mentioned above? Those above seem much bigger and more like a broad leaved helleborine in size.
Dave

These are Green-flowered. The various postings above prove what an incredibly variable species it is.

Plants are often very small, and weedy, looking, particularly I find if they are growing in an open aspect.

As far as I know they self fertilise even when the flowers don't open.

Rich M

 

[muba]

Over 'ere mate, on my 'ead

self explanatory

 

[muba]

Fragrant Orchids questions

These two plants were in flower at Minera Quarry today. Most of the fragrants well on the way out, but some were still flowering well.
The first is almost certainly densiflora. Following the guide in Harrap the lip is three lobed, side lobes longest, and braoder then long. The lateral speals are blunt and held horizontally.
The second looks different, though is still quite densely flowered. Looks more like conopsea. The lip is only a bit wider than long, and arguably has a larger central lobe. More significantly the lateral sepals are pointy and slightly deflexed. It wasn't as nicely scented as the others. The main argument against this is that August is way past the flowering season. A Marsh x Common hybrid perhaps?

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Both are definitely densiflora from the pics.

Sean

 

[Leifus]

Irish Lady's-tresses perfect in Ireland at the moment!

 

[muba]

Both are definitely densiflora from the pics.

Sean

Those lateral sepals are quite different. Both in shape and positioning.

 

[leptochila]

Those lateral sepals are quite different. Both in shape and positioning.

The lateral sepals are, in my experience, quite variable within all 3 Gymnadenia and so aren't really a very good identification feature. Much more useful is the habitat and flowering time. The very fact that is plant is still in flower now almost completely eliminates the possibility of it being either G. conopsea or G. borealis. If this plant was found amongst a population of definite G. densiflora then that is almost certainly what this plant is too.

A hybrid is in theory possible but it would be impossible to confirm as the 3 species are so very similar anyway!

Mike

 

[muba]

The lateral sepals are, in my experience, quite variable within all 3 Gymnadenia and so aren't really a very good identification feature. Much more useful is the habitat and flowering time. The very fact that is plant is still in flower now almost completely eliminates the possibility of it being either G. conopsea or G. borealis. If this plant was found amongst a population of definite G. densiflora then that is almost certainly what this plant is too.

A hybrid is in theory possible but it would be impossible to confirm as the 3 species are so very similar anyway!

Mike

I have seen conopsea flowering at same site in late June- early July. I was surprised to find densiflora today.

 

[Bodhyfryd]

GFH - again!

We have been continuing our examination of some of the local (North-east Wales) E.phyllanthes populations. Our general conclusion is that most are either pendula or phyllanthes. One plant, however, puzzled us and in view of the elongated tip (significantly longer than broad) we wondered if this might be an example of vectensis. Any observations would be welcome. Thank you.

Martin

 

[muba]

Went to Ainsdale to have a look at the Dune Helleborines. It looks like quite a few are going over before the flower opens properly, or at all.

But I'd welcome comments on this helleborine

 

[leptochila]

Went to Ainsdale to have a look at the Dune Helleborines. It looks like quite a few are going over before the flower opens properly, or at all.

But I'd welcome comments on this helleborine

A nice widely-open E. phyllanthes var. pendula.

Mike

 

[LizandDave]

Can anyone please tell me when Autumn Lady's Tresses come into flower in the Kent area?
Thanks
Dave

 

[lizard orchid]

Dear All,
Not sure if you folks have seen this but a good refind for London. However I don't think anyone will be allowed to see it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/10191940/Rare-orchid-discovered-in-Buckingham-Palaces-gardens.html

Brian Laney.