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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mosca" data-source="post: 1776998" data-attributes="member: 69162">Thanks for the comments and thoughts everyone, I appreciate them.solitaryVSong, feel free posting here, it's not my thread so say whatever you like.I agree colleenc and it is something I'm struggling with at the moment. I think the answer could be in a few places. 1st, I am still new to this style of drawing (I think the robin is No11) so have a long way to go, 2nd I am struggling finding and learning about decent paper. The stuff I'm using at the moment punctures quite easily and so I'm not getting the depth of layers I would like, (but that could also be cause 1) and 3rd I think I could find more tonal value overall buy including a background in the work. My previous work has always been extremely quick, no more than ten mins on a picture, I am continuing the slower detailed process but would eventually like to meet somewhere in the middle.If you have other suggestion or tips how you think the pictures could be improved please post them. all information and tips are helpful.</blockquote>