Advice need please re. eye strain with Monarch 7 8x30 (1 Viewer)

[Chosun Juan]

Thanks that's helpful. I haven't had chance yet to try your suggestion of moving the binoculars away from my face to see if that helps as it was dark when I read your message last night and I left for work this morning before it got light, but will try your suggestion when I get home this afternoon.

Interesting your comments about the Swarovski 8x30 possibly being more forgiving. I'm seeing a friend on Monday who has the Swarovski 10x30 but I'm not sure if it's the CL or a higher model but I thought I would ask her if I could give them a try. If all things were equal I think I would prefer the x10 magnification but I'm just aware of the risk people report of them being harder to keep stable. Do people ever find they buy a x8 and wished they'd gone for the x10 and vice versa?

Hi Sue,

It's very important to get the binoculars set up correctly for you - Inter-Pupillary Distance (IPD), Eye Relief (ER), and Diopter. Sometimes you do all that as well as possible, and the ease of view for you is still not great. ie. there doesn't seem to be much margin of error in alignment before things go a bit pear-shaped ..... black spots etc. It can be down to the way the binocular fits your face /glasses, or it's just a function of the optical design. GiGi certainly likes her Nikon MHG 8x30, so issues viewing through it sound a bit odd.

This 'Optical Box' thing is a term brought over by practitioners of other hobbies (that are verboten to mention here) who like to come on over and mine the vast knowledge of the enthusiasts and BB stackers here. It simply means a greater margin of error around the Exit Pupil (EP = Objective divided by Magnification) bundle and eye positioning (ER) - and indicates a better, more forgiving optical design. Swarovski with their latest models are quite well regarded for this welcome quality to their view (however some find this also has a bit of a drawback in more visible glare. It's an individual thing that needs to be tried for yourself).

As far as 8x vs 10x goes, there are a couple of important differences. As well as a bit more magnification (which is proportional to shake), the 10x has less Field of View (Fov), a smaller EP, often less ER (which can make things critical for glasses wearers), and less Depth of Field (Dof) - this is how much distance in front of and behind the focus point remains sharp. It can mean more focus wheel twiddling for the 10x.

In bad cases, where you are already having troubles with the ease of view, then this can exacerbate getting a good view. I once had a 10x which was so critical for setting up the binocular correctly, and had such a thin Dof, that there were times when I whacked them up to my face trying to get an id from a fleeting glimpse of a rapidly disappearing bird where I swear I could see virtually nothing - like literally nothing ! I ended up sending that one back, and haven't gone back to 10x since.

In general, the extra Fov, EP, and Dof of the 8x over the 10x makes them more forgiving to use (all things being equal - such as fit to eyes etc). Unless you are doing a lot of far away viewing of birds across wetland ponds, and/or distant Swifts /Raptors etc, the 8x is more versatile to use. However - let YOUR eyes be the final arbiters ' it is very important to try before you buy.

The Swarovski 8x30 CL B should be pretty forgiving to view through for it's EP size (3.75mm), and likewise the 100 gram heavier 8x32 SV (4mm EP). As you are lucky enough not to wear glasses birding, have a look at the Leica 8x32 UVHD+ as well (ER often rules that one out for glasses wearers unfortunately).

As Dennis said, the 8x42 Nikon Monarch HG has a 5.25mm EP and is only another ~80grams heavier again. The Meopta 8x32 B1.1 Plus also gets good value raps from those who have it.

Good luck with it all :t:






Chosun :gh:

 

[A2GG]

CJ (post 21),

As much as I admire the Ultravid 8x32 I can't recommend it for Sue.
When I tried it recently I found it finicky even without glasses. I tried
different eyecup lengths and still had issues with blackouts. Eye placement seems
critical and I think it may be too fussy for Sue given her experiences with the M7 8x30.

I agree with Swaro CL-b 8x30 and/or Monarch HG 8x42 for Sue. Hopefully those work well for her, as they're both
great bins.

 

[[email protected]]

CJ (post 21),

As much as I admire the Ultravid 8x32 I can't recommend it for Sue.
When I tried it recently I found it finicky even without glasses. I tried
different eyecup lengths and still had issues with blackouts. Eye placement seems
critical and I think it may be too fussy for Sue given her experiences with the M7 8x30.

I agree with Swaro CL-b 8x30 and/or Monarch HG 8x42 for Sue. Hopefully those work well for her, as they're both
great bins.

I find the Ultravid finicky also and I WANTED to like since it is so small and compact. The eye cups were too short for the eye relief with my shallow eye sockets. Another floater.

 

[Foss]

Hi Sue,
Regarding eyestrain, a very subtle binocular barrel misalignment may be taxing your eyes without your knowing. The method I use to determine whether this may be the case is to find a telephone pole with an upper cross-member maybe 200 yards away and focus the binoculars on the pole-cross member intersection. Holding the binos steady, move your eyes 2-3" back from the eye cup, blink rapidly a few times, and then stare. It may take several tries. The idea is to override your brain correcting the barrel misalignment.
Usually, but not always, you can catch a misalignment with this method. There are other ways too.
Good luck, Jack

 

[Upland]

Hi Sue, I’m guessing the eyecups are a problem as well. If you drop them down your nose a lot of stray light will come in. That particular bino has flare problems reported by some users including myself. I would suggest going up to a 8x32 with longer eyecups so you can just put them up to your face without fiddling around with placement. Makes for a much nicer experience in my opinion. If you want to stay in that price range I would suggest the Leupold Pro Guide IV. It’s a very nice mid size that is made in Japan with a locking diopter. Unusual to find that combo in that price range. Very under rated bino in my opinion. Good luck with your search. Don’t be afraid to try more than one bino to find what works for you. But from a dealer that always hassle free. There a quite a few.

 

[SueG]

CJ (post 21),

As much as I admire the Ultravid 8x32 I can't recommend it for Sue.
When I tried it recently I found it finicky even without glasses. I tried
different eyecup lengths and still had issues with blackouts. Eye placement seems
critical and I think it may be too fussy for Sue given her experiences with the M7 8x30.

I agree with Swaro CL-b 8x30 and/or Monarch HG 8x42 for Sue. Hopefully those work well for her, as they're both
great bins.

Hi Gilmore Girl, I really appreciate your advice on this and found your comments on the Ultravid 8x32 very helpful, thank you Sue

 

[SueG]

Hi Sue,
Regarding eyestrain, a very subtle binocular barrel misalignment may be taxing your eyes without your knowing. The method I use to determine whether this may be the case is to find a telephone pole with an upper cross-member maybe 200 yards away and focus the binoculars on the pole-cross member intersection. Holding the binos steady, move your eyes 2-3" back from the eye cup, blink rapidly a few times, and then stare. It may take several tries. The idea is to override your brain correcting the barrel misalignment.
Usually, but not always, you can catch a misalignment with this method. There are other ways too.
Good luck, Jack

Sorry Foss, this may be a silly question, but by doing what you suggested does it identify the problem of barrel misalignment or trick the brain into ignoring and solving the problem. Many thanks

 

[SueG]

Hi Sue, I’m guessing the eyecups are a problem as well. If you drop them down your nose a lot of stray light will come in. That particular bino has flare problems reported by some users including myself. I would suggest going up to a 8x32 with longer eyecups so you can just put them up to your face without fiddling around with placement. Makes for a much nicer experience in my opinion. If you want to stay in that price range I would suggest the Leupold Pro Guide IV. It’s a very nice mid size that is made in Japan with a locking diopter. Unusual to find that combo in that price range. Very under rated bino in my opinion. Good luck with your search. Don’t be afraid to try more than one bino to find what works for you. But from a dealer that always hassle free. There a quite a few.

Is there a lot of difference between a x30 and 32? As far a price range is concerned I'm keeping an opening mind as I intend to keep the binoculars for a long time and to me it's more important to get the right ones. Many thanks Sue

 

[[email protected]]

Is there a lot of difference between a x30 and 32? As far a price range is concerned I'm keeping an opening mind as I intend to keep the binoculars for a long time and to me it's more important to get the right ones. Many thanks Sue

Yes, in general. When you move up from a Swarovski CL 8x30 B to an EL 8x32 for example you will most definitely notice a difference. But remember in this case you are going from a $1K binocular to a $2K alpha binocular and the EL 8x32 is Swarovskis best 32 mm. So it depends on what 8x30 and what 8x32 you are talking about and the quality of the binocular. For example, a CL 8x30 B is probably better optically than a 32 mm Tasco. A 32 mm in general will be slightly brighter in lower light, have a larger FOV(most of the time) and with the bigger exit pupil have slightly easier eye placement and it won't be quite as finicky. A 8x30 is about as small of a binocular I would consider using for a full time birding binocular but if you like lightweight and a compact size they are very attractive.

 

[WJC]

Sorry Foss, this may be a silly question, but by doing what you suggested does it identify the problem of barrel misalignment or trick the brain into ignoring and solving the problem. Many thanks

I’m not Foss ... for which he will be eternally grateful. But as the first graphic I posted in #7 pointed out, the eye/brain combination has the ability to correct for small errors in collimation, based on the magnitude, direction of the linear separation, and the IPD used. Sometimes, no noticeable eyestrain will ensue. Higher magnitudes may be more problematic as collimation tolerances change with magnification.

Dennis has given you a baseline to spot the problem. However, unless you have learned to STARE (a factor many observers refuse to believe) that eye/brain combination will still work against you. I am frequently tarred and feathered for saying this, but 100% of the collimation tips currently on the Internet are WRONG.

The second part of the equation is that just knowing collimation error exists, offers nothing about correcting the problem. So many things concerning binocular repair can be achieved by someone with a bit of patience, common sense, and a good mechanical aptitude. Knowing the difference between clinical, 3-axis collimation and conditional alignment is a whole different ball game.

I will entertain corrections from anyone who has successfully done a tenth of the collimation jobs I have. That’s about 1,200. But please hurry, I’m 69. :cat:

Cheers,

Bill

 

[Upland]

Is there a lot of difference between a x30 and 32? As far a price range is concerned I'm keeping an opening mind as I intend to keep the binoculars for a long time and to me it's more important to get the right ones. Many thanks Sue

The difference for me lies in the size and ergonomics. I’ve yet to find a 8x30 with eyecups long or big enough for my face. This includes the CLs. With a small increase in size with many of the 8x32s you’ll Get longer eyecups and also typically a little bigger diameter that is more similar to an 8x42 (quite a few manufacturers use the same eyecups in their 32 and 42 mm models). Also the slight increase in size of the body’s make a 32 mm more comfortable to carry for me. If you have small hands and face a 30 mm model may be more to your liking.

 

[Chosun Juan]

Sue, have you seen this lightly used Swarovski 8x30 CL B advertised here on BF ? 750 USD shipped (£575) - check that - Contact the seller if interested (can use Private Messaging).

It could be worth investigating what it would actually cost to get them into your hands (not sure of tax situations on used items, or what shipping and insurance would cost - or how much of that is included).

Importantly you should check out the warranty situation (especially given their origin and not being the original purchaser) to see if you are fully covered, and where you would send them for service/cleaning should they ever need it.

https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=395570







Chosun :gh:

 

[SueG]

I’m not Foss ... for which he will be eternally grateful. But as the first graphic I posted in #7 pointed out, the eye/brain combination has the ability to correct for small errors in collimation, based on the magnitude, direction of the linear separation, and the IPD used. Sometimes, no noticeable eyestrain will ensue. Higher magnitudes may be more problematic as collimation tolerances change with magnification.

Dennis has given you a baseline to spot the problem. However, unless you have learned to STARE (a factor many observers refuse to believe) that eye/brain combination will still work against you. I am frequently tarred and feathered for saying this, but 100% of the collimation tips currently on the Internet are WRONG.

The second part of the equation is that just knowing collimation error exists, offers nothing about correcting the problem. So many things concerning binocular repair can be achieved by someone with a bit of patience, common sense, and a good mechanical aptitude. Knowing the difference between clinical, 3-axis collimation and conditional alignment is a whole different ball game.

I will entertain corrections from anyone who has successfully done a tenth of the collimation jobs I have. That’s about 1,200. But please hurry, I’m 69. :cat:

Cheers,

Bill

Apologies, I was using my iphone which restricted by view when replying, thank you, all very interesting, Sue

 

[mbb]

CJ (post 21),

As much as I admire the Ultravid 8x32 I can't recommend it for Sue.
When I tried it recently I found it finicky even without glasses. I tried
different eyecup lengths and still had issues with blackouts. Eye placement seems
critical and I think it may be too fussy for Sue given her experiences with the M7 8x30.

I agree with Swaro CL-b 8x30 and/or Monarch HG 8x42 for Sue. Hopefully those work well for her, as they're both
great bins.

I think this is really something to experience/try hands on.
I find both my Kite Lynx HD 8x30 (according to many very similar to the Nikon M7) and Ultravid HD 8x32 very comfortable and have no problem at all with small eye relief of the Ultravid (but I don’t wear glasses). I like the stiff hinge of the Ultravid: the IPD stays exactly as I want it for my eyes. But indeed, my partner has a little different opinion: she finds the Kite a (little) bit more comfortable. I am still wondering why(maybe because the Lynx has a looser hinge as she more naturally aligns it well with her IPD).
We both agree that the Zeiss Victory 8x25 is a bit more demanding regarding eye placement.
I find the Swarovski Habicht 8x30 a bit less ‘easy’ than the other 30-32mm, notwithstanding its impressive view, but that is probably due to the too small eyecups (even more so I think than the small eye relief).

I thus think that the difference 25 vs 30/32 mm (at identical magnification) is significant regarding the resulting exit pupil and linked ease of eye positioning, but that the difference 30 vs 32 mm is negligible, or at least that other things (e.g. eye cups etc.) will be much(!) more important.

 

[Foss]

Sorry Foss, this may be a silly question, but by doing what you suggested does it identify the problem of barrel misalignment or trick the brain into ignoring and solving the problem. Many thanks

It can identify misalignment of the barrels. If misalignment is present, the blinking routine while focused on the telephone pole cross members should show two slightly overlapping images--one may be like a ghost image. Stars often stand out as double images too, if collimation is present.
Lots of great advice in this thread, I'm confident you'll get things sorted out.
~ Foss

 

[WJC]

Foss meant if MIScollimation or MISalignment is present.

Bill

 

[SueG]

Chosun, thank you for letting me know about these 8x30CL's. I've decided not to follow it up though as I had some uncertainty over the ticking focus wheel and the situation with the warranty but thank you.

 

[SueG]

Can I ask, is the 8x30CL with the "optical box" as forgiving when it comes to eye placement as a 8x32?

 

[[email protected]]

Can I ask, is the 8x30CL with the "optical box" as forgiving when it comes to eye placement as a 8x32?

That is a good question. Again it would depend on what 8x32 you are talking about. Even though all 8x32 binoculars have the same size exit pupil some are more forgiving for eye placement because of their design. If you are talking about the EL 8x32 which has very easy eye placement for a 8x32 I would give a slight edge to the EL 8x32 over the CL 8x30 but some 8x32 binoculars would have the same ease of eye placement as the CL 8x30. The CL 8x30 has the easiest eye placement of any 8x30 binocular I have used and I have used them all.

 

[pat mitchel]

SueG; Are you in an area that birders frequent? You might ask someone who has handled different binoculars their opinion as to the apparent problem with the binoculars or the operator. Regards, Pat