Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Here´s twenty-two small additional information regarding the possible Etymologies of some various, more or less, uncertain Bird Names that I´ve happened to stumble upon trying to understand various Swedish Bird Names …
Disclaimer! ALL of the explanations in this list are just plausible, I haven´t gone the full length in researching them, but I thought it might be a good idea to post my findings anyhow – just as small clues or little leads, if someone else feel like investigating these names further!?
The following might, could, maybe, add something new regarding the following various names:
No. 1 – nebouxii in …
● Blue-footed Booby Sula nebouxii MILNE-EDWARDS 1882
... probably the French Naturalitst and Dr (surgeon): Adolphe Simon Neboux (1806–1844*) a k a "Adolphe-Simon Néboux" (*sometimes his years are given as "1806–après/about 1847"), who sailed on the frigate Vénus between the years 1836 and 1839, visiting the Pacific coast of North America and the Galápagos Islands.
No. 2 – sousae in …
● The subspecies (Orthotomus) Artisornis moreaui sousae BENSON 1945
… could be the portuguese Civil servant, doctor Américo Baptista de Sousa (xxxx-xxxx), Provincial Commissioner in Portuguese East Africa (today Mozambique) in the 1930's and -40's. (See attached type description)
No. 3 – "Loria" and loriae in …
● the Generic name "Loria" (syn. Cnemophilus DE VIS 1890) as in "Loria loriae" SALVADORI 1893/94 (today Loria's Bird-of-paradise Cnemophilus loriae a k a "Loria's Satinbird").
● the subspecies Pitta erythrogaster loriae SALVADORI 1890 as "Pitta Loriae".
● the subspecies Ptilorrhoa leucosticta loriae SALVADORI 1896 as "Eupetes loriae".
… possibly the Italian Ethnologist, Naturalist and Collector (of birds, insects, plants and ethnographical materials): Dr. Lamberto Loria (1855–1913), who explored New Guinea in the 1880's and 1890's.
I doubt that that all of them (by the ending ae) should be commemorating any (however wonderful?) wife of his (as been claimed)? Also compare with, for example; the Loria's Mastiff Bat Mormopterus loriae THOMAS 1897 and Large Tree Mouse Pogonomys loriae THOMAS 1897 and many, many others.
No. 4 – richardi in …
● Richard's Pipit Anthus richardi VIEILLOT 1818
= the unknown French Naturalist M. (Monsieur) Mr. Richard ("c.1750–c.1820"*), from the township Lunéville – who collected the first specimen of this species in 1815 and another one, the year after.
*Anyway according to: Hobbs, J. 2012. List of Pipits with References. Version 1.2 (December 2012). See link (here).
Could this Mr. Richard, maybe, might be the French Botanist Louis Richard (1754–1821), whose full name was Louis Claude Marie Richard – commemorated in the today invalid Generic Plant Name Richardia (Syn: Zantedeschia) ... ??? He was, at that time, famous enough, not in need of any further presentation. HBW Alive (2014) tells us: " Louis-Claude Richard (fl. 1792) French ornithologist, collector (Anthus)" ...
No. 5 – beli in …
● the subspecies "Bel's Silver Pheasant" Lophura nycthemera beli MILNE EDWARDS 1897: "M. Marc Bel"
= Mr. (M. = Monsieur) Marc Bel – that personally brought these birds to Paris in 1897, after his visit to French Indochina.
This Mr. Bel could, might be (!?) the French Mining engineer Jean Marc Bel (1855–1930), that traveled the World (Northern Bolivia in 1888–1889 and 1896, Transvaal in South Africa in 1892, several Countries in South East Asia in 1893, 1895, 1896–1897 and African Kongo 1906–1908). Renown member of the two prestigious French Societies: Société de géographie and Académie des sciences d’outre-mer.
No. 6 – milleti in …
● Black-hooded Laughingthrush Garrulax milleti KLOSS 1919 (a k a "Vietnam Laughing-thrush"): "This striking species is named in honour of Monsieur F. Millet in charge of the forest of Langbian Province and a big-game hunter, to whom I owe thanks for much assistance, information, and hospitality during my visit to the Langbian Plateau." who shot the Types, a pair, in "South Annam. 2-4 May 1918"
… most likely the almost totally un-known French Big-Game Hunter Fernand Victor Millet (xxxx-xxxxx)
No. 7 – navai in …
● Nava’s Wren Hylorchilus (sumichrasti) navai CROSSIN & Ely 1971
= the fairly unknown Mexican naturalist and ornithologist Juan Nava, whose full name probably was Juan Nava Solorio, and not, like in the type description: "We are pleased to name this subspecies for Juan Nava Solario, … ".
Juan Nava collected the type on the 4th January 1971 and was still alive and active in 1993 …
No. 8 – ruahae in …
● Tanzanian Red-billed Hornbill Tockus (erythrorhynchus) ruahae KEMP & DELPORT 2002 a k a "Ruaha Hornbill"
… most likely Ruaha National Park, in Central Tanzania – where this species was discovered (in the Wild), after having been found for the first time (in 1991) in the Zoological Garden Jurong Bird Park, in Singapore! The NP, in its turn, is named after Ruaha Mkuu (in English called Ruaha - or Great Ruaha River), one of three larger rivers, that flows through this National Park.
No. 9 – sabini in …
● Sabine's Spinetail Rhaphidura sabini GRAY 1829: ”Bluish black; belly and rump white. Afrika. Capt. Sabine.” a k a " Sabine’s Spine-tailed Swift "
… possibly the British Explorer and Naval Captain Sir Edward Sabine (1783–1883).
Also commemorated in for example:
● Sabine's Gull (Larus) Xema sabini J. SABINE 1819
● Sabine's Puffback Dryoscopus sabini GRAY 1831: ”Capt. EDWARD SABINE"
● as well as the invalid "Sabine's Snipe Scolopax Sabini” J. SABINE 1818 (= melanistic Common Snipe Gallinago gallinago)
No. 10 – wakoloensis in …
● the hard-to-place, long-debated species (or subspecies) Wakolo Myzomela Myzomela (chloroptera/boiei/sanguinolenta) wakoloensis FORBES 1882 "Wakolo Honeyeater"
… most likely derives from the word Wakolo meaning lake, by the Alfuro (Alefuro) people on the Island Buru, Indonesia. This word was applied by Forbes (1882) to the lake itself as "lake of Wakolo" or "Lake Wakolo" – literally meaning the "lake of lake" or "the lake Lake" (today's Rana Wakolo or Lake Rana).
No. 11 – Buddinghia in …
● the invalid generic name Buddinghia SCHLEGEL & POLLEN 1867 (syn: Philepitta Saint-Hilaire 1938)
… possibly (Note: I haven´t seen the OD!) the Dutch civil servant and amateur naturalist Johan Adriaan Buddingh (1840–1870), who collected in today's Java, Indonesia.
No. 12 – Clark's in …
● the Common name Clark's Nutcracker Nucifraga columbiana Wilson 1811 a k a "Clark's Crow"
… probably the well-known US explorer William Clark (1770–1838), one of the leaders of the Lewis and Clark Expedition (1803–1806) when this species was discovered.
No. 13 – cairnsi in …
● the subspecies "Cairns's Warbler" (Dendroica) Setophaga caerulescens cairnsi COUES 1897
… most likely the US field naturalist (of Scottish Heritage) and collector John Simpson Cairns (1862–1895), of Weaverville, North Carolina – who first discovered this Warbler, and collected its type specimen.
He was killed in the line of duty, misshappened to shot himself while trying to knock down fungus from a log!
No. 14 – Batchelder's in …
● the out-dated Common name of the today invalid "Batchelder's woodpecker" Dryobates pubescens "oreœcus" BATCHELDER 1889 [Syn: subspecies (Dryobates/Dendrocopos) Picoides pubescens leucurus HARTLAUB 1852]
… most likely the US naturalist, ornithologist, collector and its describer Charles Foster Batchelder (1856–1954).
No. 15 – ramonianus in …
● the debated subspecies (or species?) Trogon (violaceus) ramonianus DEVILLE & DES MURS, 1849
… probably the Spanish, Franciscan missionary Ramón Busquet (1772–1846), that missioned in Peru in the beginning of the 1800's.
No. 16 – bondi in …
● the subspecies Tyto alba bondi PARKES & PHILLIPS 1978 [Two New Caribbean Subspecies of Barn Owl (Tyto alba), with Remarks on variation in other Populations, Annals of the Carnegie Museum 47 (article 20) pp. 479-492]: "It is a pleasure to name this distinctive form for our friend James Bond of the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia, collector of the first Bay Island specimen of Barn Owl, whose interest in the Caribbean Islands has long included those of the periphery, such as Isla Cozumel, the cays off Belize, and the Bay Islands. "(on pp. 487-488). Link to volume (here)
… most likely the well-known ornithologist "Mr. Bond, James Bond" (1900–1989)
No. 17 – willisi in …
● the subspecies Habia fuscicauda willisi PARKES 1969: "Etymology: it is most appropriate that this subspecies of ant tanager should be named for Dr. Edwin O. Willis, who has contributed so much to our knowledge of the biology of the tanagers of the genus Habia."
… most likely the US ornithologist, resident in Brazil, Dr Edwin O’Neill Willis (1935– )
No. 18 – raimondii in:
● Raimondi's Yellow-Finch Sicalis raimondii TACZANOWSKI 1874
● Peruvian Plantcutter Phytotoma raimondii TACZANOWSKI 1883
… most likely the Italian naturalist and explorer Antonio Raimondi (1826-1890)
Born 19 September 1826, in Milan (Milano) … resident in Peru from 1850 till his death 26 October 1890
No. 19 – wedeli in:
● the subspecies Lophostrix cristata wedeli GRISCOM 1932
… possibly the Latin-American ornithologist and collector Hasso von Wedel (xxxx- xxxx) that collected in Panama 1926-1930 and 1940-1941 – who might have collected the Type , a female adult, dark phase; in "Permé, Caribbean slope of Darien, eastern Panama; November 2, 1929. H. Wedel."
Not (at least I don´t think so !?),to be confused with the German Nazi officer General Hasso von Wedel 1898–1961, or the German fighter Pilot, by exactly the same name, (1893–1945). It sure would be difficult to be notorious in WWII and at the same time, in precisely those years, collect birds in Panama!?
No. 20 – courseni in …
● Apurimac Spinetail Synallaxis courseni BLAKE 1971 a k a "Apurímac spinetail"
… probably the US Business man, Field and Amateur ornithologist etc. etc. Charles Blair Coursen (1899–1974)*
Born 2 July 1899, in Salem Pennsylvania … died 6th of April 1975 at Hinsdale Illinois, USA.
From its Type Description; Blake, E R. 1971. A new species of spinetail (Synallaxis) from Peru. The Auk 88 (1): 179. Link to full volume (here)
No. 21 – "maximiliani" in …
● the long debated (either synonym, if so to nominate N. g. geoffroyi or valid subspecies ... ?) "Bahia Rufous-vented Ground Cuckoo" Neomorphus geoffroyi "maximiliani"
… most likely the German noble; Graf (Count) Maximilian Alexander Philipp zu Wied-Neuwied a k a Prinz (Prince) zu Wied (1782–1867) … as the type description* "mentions: "Cabinets Laugier de Chartrousse e prince Neuwied; Musées de Paris, de Berlin, de Vienne et Pays-Bas". Dêstes exemplares, o único cuja procedência se pode ter como certa é o do principe Maximiliano, …"
(Note: I´ve only seen excerpts, Google Books, "snippet view" – not the full article!)
*Pinto, O.M.O. (1962) Miscelânea ornitológica: notas sobre a variação geográfica nas populações de Neomorphus geoffroyi, com a descrição de uma subespécie nova. Papéis Avulsos do Departamento de Zoologia, Secretaria da Agricultura, São Paulo, 15, 299–301.
No. 22 – Newtonia in …
● the Generic name Newtonia SCHLEGEL 1866
… most likely the two British brothers Alfred Newton (1829–1907) and his younger brother Sir Edward Newton (1832–1897) … even if the latter most often gets all the credit.
Anyone of a different view?
Björn Bergenholtz, Stockholm, Sweden
PS. Please, don´t hesitate to prove me wrong! Any additional info regarding these etymologies are warmly welcomed! And; if I you know something more or feel like adding something (whatever small), please clearly state which one you are commenting on … just to avoid confusion.
PPS. Any good luck on any future attempts really, truly pin-pointing them!
Disclaimer! ALL of the explanations in this list are just plausible, I haven´t gone the full length in researching them, but I thought it might be a good idea to post my findings anyhow – just as small clues or little leads, if someone else feel like investigating these names further!?
The following might, could, maybe, add something new regarding the following various names:
No. 1 – nebouxii in …
● Blue-footed Booby Sula nebouxii MILNE-EDWARDS 1882
... probably the French Naturalitst and Dr (surgeon): Adolphe Simon Neboux (1806–1844*) a k a "Adolphe-Simon Néboux" (*sometimes his years are given as "1806–après/about 1847"), who sailed on the frigate Vénus between the years 1836 and 1839, visiting the Pacific coast of North America and the Galápagos Islands.
No. 2 – sousae in …
● The subspecies (Orthotomus) Artisornis moreaui sousae BENSON 1945
… could be the portuguese Civil servant, doctor Américo Baptista de Sousa (xxxx-xxxx), Provincial Commissioner in Portuguese East Africa (today Mozambique) in the 1930's and -40's. (See attached type description)
No. 3 – "Loria" and loriae in …
● the Generic name "Loria" (syn. Cnemophilus DE VIS 1890) as in "Loria loriae" SALVADORI 1893/94 (today Loria's Bird-of-paradise Cnemophilus loriae a k a "Loria's Satinbird").
● the subspecies Pitta erythrogaster loriae SALVADORI 1890 as "Pitta Loriae".
● the subspecies Ptilorrhoa leucosticta loriae SALVADORI 1896 as "Eupetes loriae".
… possibly the Italian Ethnologist, Naturalist and Collector (of birds, insects, plants and ethnographical materials): Dr. Lamberto Loria (1855–1913), who explored New Guinea in the 1880's and 1890's.
I doubt that that all of them (by the ending ae) should be commemorating any (however wonderful?) wife of his (as been claimed)? Also compare with, for example; the Loria's Mastiff Bat Mormopterus loriae THOMAS 1897 and Large Tree Mouse Pogonomys loriae THOMAS 1897 and many, many others.
No. 4 – richardi in …
● Richard's Pipit Anthus richardi VIEILLOT 1818
= the unknown French Naturalist M. (Monsieur) Mr. Richard ("c.1750–c.1820"*), from the township Lunéville – who collected the first specimen of this species in 1815 and another one, the year after.
*Anyway according to: Hobbs, J. 2012. List of Pipits with References. Version 1.2 (December 2012). See link (here).
Could this Mr. Richard, maybe, might be the French Botanist Louis Richard (1754–1821), whose full name was Louis Claude Marie Richard – commemorated in the today invalid Generic Plant Name Richardia (Syn: Zantedeschia) ... ??? He was, at that time, famous enough, not in need of any further presentation. HBW Alive (2014) tells us: " Louis-Claude Richard (fl. 1792) French ornithologist, collector (Anthus)" ...
No. 5 – beli in …
● the subspecies "Bel's Silver Pheasant" Lophura nycthemera beli MILNE EDWARDS 1897: "M. Marc Bel"
= Mr. (M. = Monsieur) Marc Bel – that personally brought these birds to Paris in 1897, after his visit to French Indochina.
This Mr. Bel could, might be (!?) the French Mining engineer Jean Marc Bel (1855–1930), that traveled the World (Northern Bolivia in 1888–1889 and 1896, Transvaal in South Africa in 1892, several Countries in South East Asia in 1893, 1895, 1896–1897 and African Kongo 1906–1908). Renown member of the two prestigious French Societies: Société de géographie and Académie des sciences d’outre-mer.
No. 6 – milleti in …
● Black-hooded Laughingthrush Garrulax milleti KLOSS 1919 (a k a "Vietnam Laughing-thrush"): "This striking species is named in honour of Monsieur F. Millet in charge of the forest of Langbian Province and a big-game hunter, to whom I owe thanks for much assistance, information, and hospitality during my visit to the Langbian Plateau." who shot the Types, a pair, in "South Annam. 2-4 May 1918"
… most likely the almost totally un-known French Big-Game Hunter Fernand Victor Millet (xxxx-xxxxx)
No. 7 – navai in …
● Nava’s Wren Hylorchilus (sumichrasti) navai CROSSIN & Ely 1971
= the fairly unknown Mexican naturalist and ornithologist Juan Nava, whose full name probably was Juan Nava Solorio, and not, like in the type description: "We are pleased to name this subspecies for Juan Nava Solario, … ".
Juan Nava collected the type on the 4th January 1971 and was still alive and active in 1993 …
No. 8 – ruahae in …
● Tanzanian Red-billed Hornbill Tockus (erythrorhynchus) ruahae KEMP & DELPORT 2002 a k a "Ruaha Hornbill"
… most likely Ruaha National Park, in Central Tanzania – where this species was discovered (in the Wild), after having been found for the first time (in 1991) in the Zoological Garden Jurong Bird Park, in Singapore! The NP, in its turn, is named after Ruaha Mkuu (in English called Ruaha - or Great Ruaha River), one of three larger rivers, that flows through this National Park.
No. 9 – sabini in …
● Sabine's Spinetail Rhaphidura sabini GRAY 1829: ”Bluish black; belly and rump white. Afrika. Capt. Sabine.” a k a " Sabine’s Spine-tailed Swift "
… possibly the British Explorer and Naval Captain Sir Edward Sabine (1783–1883).
Also commemorated in for example:
● Sabine's Gull (Larus) Xema sabini J. SABINE 1819
● Sabine's Puffback Dryoscopus sabini GRAY 1831: ”Capt. EDWARD SABINE"
● as well as the invalid "Sabine's Snipe Scolopax Sabini” J. SABINE 1818 (= melanistic Common Snipe Gallinago gallinago)
No. 10 – wakoloensis in …
● the hard-to-place, long-debated species (or subspecies) Wakolo Myzomela Myzomela (chloroptera/boiei/sanguinolenta) wakoloensis FORBES 1882 "Wakolo Honeyeater"
… most likely derives from the word Wakolo meaning lake, by the Alfuro (Alefuro) people on the Island Buru, Indonesia. This word was applied by Forbes (1882) to the lake itself as "lake of Wakolo" or "Lake Wakolo" – literally meaning the "lake of lake" or "the lake Lake" (today's Rana Wakolo or Lake Rana).
No. 11 – Buddinghia in …
● the invalid generic name Buddinghia SCHLEGEL & POLLEN 1867 (syn: Philepitta Saint-Hilaire 1938)
… possibly (Note: I haven´t seen the OD!) the Dutch civil servant and amateur naturalist Johan Adriaan Buddingh (1840–1870), who collected in today's Java, Indonesia.
No. 12 – Clark's in …
● the Common name Clark's Nutcracker Nucifraga columbiana Wilson 1811 a k a "Clark's Crow"
… probably the well-known US explorer William Clark (1770–1838), one of the leaders of the Lewis and Clark Expedition (1803–1806) when this species was discovered.
No. 13 – cairnsi in …
● the subspecies "Cairns's Warbler" (Dendroica) Setophaga caerulescens cairnsi COUES 1897
… most likely the US field naturalist (of Scottish Heritage) and collector John Simpson Cairns (1862–1895), of Weaverville, North Carolina – who first discovered this Warbler, and collected its type specimen.
He was killed in the line of duty, misshappened to shot himself while trying to knock down fungus from a log!
No. 14 – Batchelder's in …
● the out-dated Common name of the today invalid "Batchelder's woodpecker" Dryobates pubescens "oreœcus" BATCHELDER 1889 [Syn: subspecies (Dryobates/Dendrocopos) Picoides pubescens leucurus HARTLAUB 1852]
… most likely the US naturalist, ornithologist, collector and its describer Charles Foster Batchelder (1856–1954).
No. 15 – ramonianus in …
● the debated subspecies (or species?) Trogon (violaceus) ramonianus DEVILLE & DES MURS, 1849
… probably the Spanish, Franciscan missionary Ramón Busquet (1772–1846), that missioned in Peru in the beginning of the 1800's.
No. 16 – bondi in …
● the subspecies Tyto alba bondi PARKES & PHILLIPS 1978 [Two New Caribbean Subspecies of Barn Owl (Tyto alba), with Remarks on variation in other Populations, Annals of the Carnegie Museum 47 (article 20) pp. 479-492]: "It is a pleasure to name this distinctive form for our friend James Bond of the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia, collector of the first Bay Island specimen of Barn Owl, whose interest in the Caribbean Islands has long included those of the periphery, such as Isla Cozumel, the cays off Belize, and the Bay Islands. "(on pp. 487-488). Link to volume (here)
… most likely the well-known ornithologist "Mr. Bond, James Bond" (1900–1989)
No. 17 – willisi in …
● the subspecies Habia fuscicauda willisi PARKES 1969: "Etymology: it is most appropriate that this subspecies of ant tanager should be named for Dr. Edwin O. Willis, who has contributed so much to our knowledge of the biology of the tanagers of the genus Habia."
… most likely the US ornithologist, resident in Brazil, Dr Edwin O’Neill Willis (1935– )
No. 18 – raimondii in:
● Raimondi's Yellow-Finch Sicalis raimondii TACZANOWSKI 1874
● Peruvian Plantcutter Phytotoma raimondii TACZANOWSKI 1883
… most likely the Italian naturalist and explorer Antonio Raimondi (1826-1890)
Born 19 September 1826, in Milan (Milano) … resident in Peru from 1850 till his death 26 October 1890
No. 19 – wedeli in:
● the subspecies Lophostrix cristata wedeli GRISCOM 1932
… possibly the Latin-American ornithologist and collector Hasso von Wedel (xxxx- xxxx) that collected in Panama 1926-1930 and 1940-1941 – who might have collected the Type , a female adult, dark phase; in "Permé, Caribbean slope of Darien, eastern Panama; November 2, 1929. H. Wedel."
Not (at least I don´t think so !?),to be confused with the German Nazi officer General Hasso von Wedel 1898–1961, or the German fighter Pilot, by exactly the same name, (1893–1945). It sure would be difficult to be notorious in WWII and at the same time, in precisely those years, collect birds in Panama!?
No. 20 – courseni in …
● Apurimac Spinetail Synallaxis courseni BLAKE 1971 a k a "Apurímac spinetail"
… probably the US Business man, Field and Amateur ornithologist etc. etc. Charles Blair Coursen (1899–1974)*
Born 2 July 1899, in Salem Pennsylvania … died 6th of April 1975 at Hinsdale Illinois, USA.
From its Type Description; Blake, E R. 1971. A new species of spinetail (Synallaxis) from Peru. The Auk 88 (1): 179. Link to full volume (here)
*Not to be confused with his son; Charles Blair Coursen, Jr (1923–1972)."The new species is named in honor of C. Blair Coursen, whose interest in neotropical birds and timely generosity in support of field work have resulted in important Peruvian collections,
of which the holotype is a part. A dedicated and gifted amateur ornithologist of wide interests, Mr. Coursen is co-author (with E. R. Ford and C. C. Sanborn) of "Birds of the Chicago region" (1934) and has conducted field studies in several tropical American countries. "
No. 21 – "maximiliani" in …
● the long debated (either synonym, if so to nominate N. g. geoffroyi or valid subspecies ... ?) "Bahia Rufous-vented Ground Cuckoo" Neomorphus geoffroyi "maximiliani"
… most likely the German noble; Graf (Count) Maximilian Alexander Philipp zu Wied-Neuwied a k a Prinz (Prince) zu Wied (1782–1867) … as the type description* "mentions: "Cabinets Laugier de Chartrousse e prince Neuwied; Musées de Paris, de Berlin, de Vienne et Pays-Bas". Dêstes exemplares, o único cuja procedência se pode ter como certa é o do principe Maximiliano, …"
(Note: I´ve only seen excerpts, Google Books, "snippet view" – not the full article!)
*Pinto, O.M.O. (1962) Miscelânea ornitológica: notas sobre a variação geográfica nas populações de Neomorphus geoffroyi, com a descrição de uma subespécie nova. Papéis Avulsos do Departamento de Zoologia, Secretaria da Agricultura, São Paulo, 15, 299–301.
No. 22 – Newtonia in …
● the Generic name Newtonia SCHLEGEL 1866
… most likely the two British brothers Alfred Newton (1829–1907) and his younger brother Sir Edward Newton (1832–1897) … even if the latter most often gets all the credit.
Anyone of a different view?
Björn Bergenholtz, Stockholm, Sweden
PS. Please, don´t hesitate to prove me wrong! Any additional info regarding these etymologies are warmly welcomed! And; if I you know something more or feel like adding something (whatever small), please clearly state which one you are commenting on … just to avoid confusion.
PPS. Any good luck on any future attempts really, truly pin-pointing them!
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