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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Anyone else like Birds AND planes? (1 Viewer)

Two of the Ultimate Fighters display team, a Hispano Buchon (Spanish-built and Merlin-engined Me109) on the left and the portly form of the Republic P47D Thunderbolt - the mighty "Jug" - on the right.

John

Cheers John, presume as WW2 “fighters” not often seen in our skies, certainly two good ticks for me and well done on the ID....you should take up birdwatching, you’d be a whizz on the Larus group. :t: ;)
 
Unfortunately i think there are very few, if any, genuine Me109’s flyable:C

I saw one displaying at RAF Cosford over 20 years ago and it subsequently crashed. Even the ones filmed in The Battle of Britain were Spanish Buchons iirc.

Incidentally the ‘Jug’ was the most powerful single-seat single-engine fighter of WW2 with several squadrons being based in East Anglia with one commanded by the legendary Gabby Gabreskie whose pre pump talk when briefing pilots prior to their marauding ground attacks on German armour, airfields and trains would finish with:

‘Get ‘em on the ground, get ‘em in the air, just get ‘em - don’t bring any ammo back we got plenty’:eek!:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabby_Gabreski

Laurie:t:
 
In addition Ken - the USAF museum at Duxford has a range of flying WW2 fighters etc and they are frequently flown both there and elsewhere in the UK during the Summer months:t:

Laurie -
 
In addition Ken - the USAF museum at Duxford has a range of flying WW2 fighters etc and they are frequently flown both there and elsewhere in the UK during the Summer months:t:

Laurie -

Hmm - not exactly. Duxford is a complicated array of organisations these days, based on the Imperial War Museum's almost exclusively NOT flying collection which includes the USAF Museum in its remarkable concrete dome building.

The flying aircraft are almost exclusively privately owned and operated. Organisations that do own and/or operate warbirds from Duxford include TFC (The Fighter Collection) OFMC (the Old Flying Machine Company) ARCo (Aircraft Restoration Company) and the operators of Sally B the B17G Flying Fortress. I do not claim that is anywhere near a comprehensive list.

During airshows contributions may also be drawn from The Shuttleworth Trust at Old Warden (itself a fabulous grass-field display location) Ultimate Fighters who I think are home-based at Sywell, the Norwegian Air Force Historic Squadron who normally hang out at North Weald and of course sometimes the RAF's Battle of Britain Memorial Flight (who are the only European Lancaster operator).

Shows at Duxford typically display double figures of Spitfires (even without a BBMF contribution), a few Hurricanes, a couple of Mustangs, lately up to five Buchons and odd ones of a wide range of other WWII fighters from Gladiator biplanes to Yak 9 Soviet fighters (not many twins these days though Red Bull have brought their P38 Lightning and B25 Mitchell occasionally.) Well worth a look - and a listen.

John
 
Anyone get aircraft gifts for Christmas? I got a Concorde calendar and a Concorde picture signed by Mike Bannister Chef Concorde Pilot which I'll get framed. As well as bird stuff I'm a fan of Concorde and collect Concorde stuff.
 
Anyone get aircraft gifts for Christmas? I got a Concorde calendar and a Concorde picture signed by Mike Bannister Chef Concorde Pilot which I'll get framed. As well as bird stuff I'm a fan of Concorde and collect Concorde stuff.

Lucky he never made a hash of it.............;)
 
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I recently photographed a black winged kite in India. Looking at the photo closer i noticed the 2 feathers projecting ahead of the wing leading edges. These look so similar to the dogtooth extensions that a super hornet and other fighter aircraft have. My hypothesis is that these feathers serve the same purpose in the kite. Improve stall and high angle of attack performance allowing it to hover exceptionally well.
Does this sound reasonable?
 

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I've just mentioned this thread to my wife of 15 years and she casually mentioned that her uncle owns a Spitfire and can fly it too. Stored at Hendon, she thinks. He also owns Eastern Airways - I did know that part. Sadly, as I am in British Columbia, neither bits of info are particularly useful.
 
I recently photographed a black winged kite in India. Looking at the photo closer i noticed the 2 feathers projecting ahead of the wing leading edges. These look so similar to the dogtooth extensions that a super hornet and other fighter aircraft have. My hypothesis is that these feathers serve the same purpose in the kite. Improve stall and high angle of attack performance allowing it to hover exceptionally well.
Does this sound reasonable?

They are closer in function to the leading edge flaps ("slots") that serve roughly the same purpose in sub-sonic aircraft. I think they were originally invented by the Handley Page aircraft company: originally as an addition to the trailing edge flaps for low speed lift generation, but the P51 Mustang at least employed slots in combat with considerable effect on sustained manoeuvrability. As you say they delay the onset of the stall.

I'm not sure about their effectiveness in the hover but it would seem reasonable that they wouldn't be extended without purpose.

John
 
Hi John,

They are closer in function to the leading edge flaps ("slots") that serve roughly the same purpose in sub-sonic aircraft. I think they were originally invented by the Handley Page aircraft company: originally as an addition to the trailing edge flaps for low speed lift generation, but the P51 Mustang at least employed slots in combat with considerable effect on sustained manoeuvrability.

I believe there was a broader patent on the slotted wing issued to Gustav Lachmann before Handley-Page independently came up with a working system, but as Lachmann subsequently joined Handley-Page and became their long-time chief designer, it all remained "in the family" ;-)

As far as I know, the P-51 Mustang didn't actually employ fixed slots or moving slats, though North American Aviation, the manufacturer of the P-51, made them a feature of their very successful early jet fighter, the F-86 Sabre.

However, the German Me 109 used Handley-Page slats. Sir Frederick Handley-Page had met Willy Messerschmitt before the war, and granted him permission to use the slats in exchange for some Messerschmitt-developed technology Handley-Page was interested in.

North American Aviation adopted the Handley-Page slats after analysis of the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter, which was equipped with these too - they turned out to be even more useful with swept wings than they had been on the straight wings they were originally designed for.

Regards,

Henning
 
Hi John,



I believe there was a broader patent on the slotted wing issued to Gustav Lachmann before Handley-Page independently came up with a working system, but as Lachmann subsequently joined Handley-Page and became their long-time chief designer, it all remained "in the family" ;-)

As far as I know, the P-51 Mustang didn't actually employ fixed slots or moving slats, though North American Aviation, the manufacturer of the P-51, made them a feature of their very successful early jet fighter, the F-86 Sabre.

However, the German Me 109 used Handley-Page slats. Sir Frederick Handley-Page had met Willy Messerschmitt before the war, and granted him permission to use the slats in exchange for some Messerschmitt-developed technology Handley-Page was interested in.

North American Aviation adopted the Handley-Page slats after analysis of the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter, which was equipped with these too - they turned out to be even more useful with swept wings than they had been on the straight wings they were originally designed for.

Regards,

Henning

Hi Henning,

Yes, you're right. Mustang pilots used to deploy their trailing edge flaps slightly to gain performance in the dogfight. My mistake! I knew the 109 had slats, wasn't sure if only used for landing.

The prototype Mosquito, W4050, has slats fitted, but trials established that the design was so good they were unnecessary, so they were deleted from production aircraft. Ah, de Havilland..... :t:

Cheers,

John
 
Hi John,

I knew the 109 had slats, wasn't sure if only used for landing.

Even Messerschmitt wasn't sure in the beginning :) They were designed to lock down automatically when the flaps were retracted, but a thorough test-flight programme showed that it was actually beneficial under all conditions to have them operating freely, and so the lock-down mechanism was eliminated both on the Me 109 and the Me 110.

Curiously, the contemporary Arado Ar 98 trainer had a selectable locking mechanism. I suspect the idea was to disable it for aerobatic flight, to get snappier flick rolls or something, but it might also have been in order to allow the student pilots to appreciate the difference in handling. The Luftwaffe apparently had a "learning by doing" approach that gave the pilots ample opportunity to try and err ... hopefully without pranging too many kites (or "crates", as the German term was :)

The prototype Mosquito, W4050, has slats fitted, but trials established that the design was so good they were unnecessary, so they were deleted from production aircraft. Ah, de Havilland..... :t:

The Mosquito definitely is one of the top aircraft I haven't seen yet, but would love to! Actually, now that I think about it ... it's the number one on that list, no contenders! :)

Regards,

Henning
 
I recently photographed a black winged kite in India. Looking at the photo closer i noticed the 2 feathers projecting ahead of the wing leading edges. These look so similar to the dogtooth extensions that a super hornet and other fighter aircraft have. My hypothesis is that these feathers serve the same purpose in the kite. Improve stall and high angle of attack performance allowing it to hover exceptionally well.
Does this sound reasonable?

Perhaps I've misunderstood but I figured that the arrowed flight feathers were the bird's " bastard wing" and these might act like the canards or winglets on say a Typhoon fast jet, enabling better manouverability/control etc?

I note that 5th Generation military jets have dispersed with these (Stealth) such as the F22, Sukhoi Su 57 though the Chinese have retained them with the Chengdu J20.
 
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Hi,

Perhaps I've misunderstood but I figured that the arrowed flight feathers were the bird's " bastard wing" and these might act like the canards or winglets on say a Typhoon fast jet, enabling better manouverability/control etc?

The canards improve control because they create lift significantly forward of the main wing's lift. At high angles of attack, they also create beneficial vortices that affect the main wing, a bit like the strakes of the F-18 that have been mentioned earlier.

The birds' alula is fairly close to the main wing, and fairly small in comparison to the main wing, so that the bird can't significantly increase the angle of attack by relying on vortex lift, because not all of the wing is covered. I believe a low aspect ratio is also a prerequisite for the practical use of vortex lift, and bird wings tend to have a high aspect ratio for efficiency reasons.

So I'd say the alula really smoothes the airflow over the middle of the wing a bit for more efficient (flapping) flight.

I was unable to find an explanation for the function of the alula in Konrad Lorenz "Vogelflug" (because it lacks an index), but I'm pretty sure there's something in Rüppel's book on the topic of bird flight. Unfortunately, I haven't unpacked that one yet after my recent move!

Regards,

Henning
 
Back in October I was at O'Reilly's National Park in Queensland.

They feature a model of a Stinson aircraft which I thought some of you might be interested in. Also a picture of the information about the aircraft.
 

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Hi,



The canards improve control because they create lift significantly forward of the main wing's lift. At high angles of attack, they also create beneficial vortices that affect the main wing, a bit like the strakes of the F-18 that have been mentioned earlier.

The birds' alula is fairly close to the main wing, and fairly small in comparison to the main wing, so that the bird can't significantly increase the angle of attack by relying on vortex lift, because not all of the wing is covered. I believe a low aspect ratio is also a prerequisite for the practical use of vortex lift, and bird wings tend to have a high aspect ratio for efficiency reasons.

So I'd say the alula really smoothes the airflow over the middle of the wing a bit for more efficient (flapping) flight.

I was unable to find an explanation for the function of the alula in Konrad Lorenz "Vogelflug" (because it lacks an index), but I'm pretty sure there's something in Rüppel's book on the topic of bird flight. Unfortunately, I haven't unpacked that one yet after my recent move!

Regards,

Henning

Great discussion. I did a little more digging around and came across this paper in nature.com.

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09914

They kind of reinforce the role of the alula in generating vortices which delay boundary layer separation and thus improve high aoa flight.
Too bad they had to kill a few birds to conduct their research. :(
 

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