• BirdForum is the net's largest birding community dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE!

    Register for an account to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

AOU-NACC Proposals 2019 (1 Viewer)

MJB

Well-known member
Was the post in English? If yes, he's hoisted himself on his own petard [alert! French word!!!] :-O

The word pétard transferred to English some time ago, its use referring to a small bomb to blow in locked doors
, appearing in Hamlet (but only in the second Quarto in 1604), and so Will probably was aware of it for some time beforehand. The word's ancestry lies in Latin, from pedere (to break wind), but it was much more commonly appreciated in the slang form 'to fart' and so it may have been used as an intentional jokey pun:

"They bear the mandate; they must sweep my way
And marshal me to knavery. Let it work,
For ’tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petard; and ’t shall go hard
But I will delve one yard below their mines
And blow them at the moon."

(An 'enginer' was a sapper)

MJB
 

Nutcracker

Stop Brexit!
What's meaning Ocotero in English, to translate it?
Literally, 'Piner', "the one of the pine trees". From the Nahuatl word Ocote (pine Pinus spp.) + the Spanish word ending -ero.


Orite à longue queue, Plectrophane des neiges, Percnoptère d'Égypte.. it's time for French ornithology to evolve
As an aside, curious to ask, does that tagline mean you are in favour of these names, or against them?
 
Last edited:

Jim LeNomenclatoriste

Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
France
Literally, 'Piner', "the one of the pine trees". From the Nahuatl word Ocote (pine Pinus spp.) + the Spanish word ending -ero.

So, named it Olive Piner


As an aside, curious to ask, does that tagline mean you are in favour of these names, or against them?

Favour. It's their official name but French ornithology is forty years behind. Fortunately, these names are mainly used on ornithological Facebook groups.

Percnoptère d'Égypte was named Vautour percnoptère/ "percnoptère vulture", Orite à longue queue was Mésange à longue queue / Long tail tit and Plectrophane des neiges was Bruant des neiges /snow bunting.

Names evolves to reflect phylogeny and real relationships. From now on, Orite, Plectrophane and Percnoptère d'Égypte are their names and we have to accept it without complaining, without being a "weeper"
 
Last edited:

Nutcracker

Stop Brexit!
So, named it Olive Piner

Except it isn't olive-coloured; that, as well as its not being a warbler, was one of the problems with the name! Grey with white wingbars, and an orange (male) or yellow (female) head.

Personally, I think Ocotero is a very nice name; 'piner' actually means something different in English too (something that pines away, wastes away); and English doesn't really have an equivalent to the Spanish '-ero' (except for '-er', as in e.g. baker being one who bakes bread).

Names evolves to reflect phylogeny and real relationships.
That's one thing where French attitudes are much better than those of most English speakers!

What's the etymology ot 'Orite'?
 

l_raty

laurent raty
Orite is the "francized" name of genus Orites, from Greek meaning "mountain dweller". Orites is, of course, a synonym of Aegithalos.
From the Greek masculine noun ὀρειώτης, a mountaineer. (Yet, orite is, oddly, used as feminine nowadays -- as if 'mésange' was still around, thus. Usage has varied historically, though -- e.g.: https://books.google.com/books?id=28kHAQAAIAAJ&q="un+orite".)
It's an awful word in French, in my opinion -- hard and dry, and sounding more like the name of a disease than that of a bird. A real pity for the soft feather balls that Aegithalidae are.
 

l_raty

laurent raty
Égithale.
(If we are to use orite, let's at least make it masculine, as it ought to be.)
 
Last edited:

Jim LeNomenclatoriste

Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
France
Égithale.
It's a name that I had already suggested but which has never existed in literature to my knowledge, contrary to Orite which was used from the middle of the 19th century

(If we are to use orite, let's at least make it masculine, as it ought to be.)

It's true that I don't know its gender


Perso, there are a few families who deserve a French name change (Oceanitidae, Arremonidae, Semnornithidae, Calyptomenidae etc)
 
Last edited:

Jim LeNomenclatoriste

Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
France
Dubois: Égithale pendulin Ægithalus pendulinus ... (here)

Indeed, but, this name is applied to the Rémiz (genus Remiz). Aegithalos and Aegithalus are, in fact, two distinct genera with their own type species : europaeus for the first (now Aegithalos caudatus europaeus) and pendulinus for the second (now Remiz pendulinus, the Rémiz penduline)
 
Last edited:

l_raty

laurent raty
Indeed, but, this name is applied to the Rémiz (genus Remiz). Aegithalos and Aegithalus are, in fact, two distinct genera with their own type species (europaeus for the first, and pendulinus for the second)
'Ægithale' (this spelling) has been used quite a few times in the 20th C for long-tailed tits:
It is even in the Larousse dictionary: https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/ægithale/1257?q=aegithale#1249 (while orite is not).

(19th C uses of the term apparently all apply to penduline tits -- which is not really surprising as Aegithalos Hermann for long-tailed tits was not in use back then: this name was exhumed by Stejneger in 1886 https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/7601226, and its generalized use in this sense dates from the early 1900s only. For a good part of the 19th C, Aegithalus Boie 1822 (alt. Vigors 1825) was used for penduline tits.
Meanwhile, 'Orite de neige' has also been used as a French name for Snow Finch https://books.google.com/books?id=7dLRAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA71, and Orites was proposed as a generic name in this last sense before it was made available for long-tailed tits (Keyserling & Blasius 1840, vs. Gray [ex Moehring] 1841).)
 
Last edited:

Jim LeNomenclatoriste

Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
France
Well, ok.... |:S||:|| That said, why did we choose Orite rather than Aegithale? it's only mystery and I like it :brains:
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top