Are Herring Gulls a threat to our bio-diversity? (1 Viewer)

[mjh73]

Motive: force DEFRA to update Seabird 2000. Then they will know that the HG population has exploded forcing them to take action for the sake of public health, other species and the future of the Realm...!

This is why you are getting short shrift here, your motive is completely wrong and the clear bias in your presumption of what an updated survey will find leads us to believe you have already decided what you want to do and are just looking for ways to justify doing it.

I've found it interesting that you have a couple of times mentioned the badger cull in the context of there being a similar need to take action, in that case to prevent the spread of bovine TB. In that case of course we know that the scientific evidence is that culling has little impact on the incidence of bovine TB http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009090?referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com.au%2Fscholar%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dbadger%2Bcull%2Btrial%26btnG%3D%26as_sdt%3D1%252C5%26as_sdtp%3D#search=%22badger%20cull%20trial%22 - note that this is a scientific paper by the primary researchers not some nonsense trawled from websites / newspaper articles.
But the cull will happen, not because it will make a difference, but because a minority of people who do not know what they are talking about are making enough noise about it to make it politically expedient EVEN THOUGH THE SCIENCE HAS SHOWN IT IS POINTLESS.

I have no doubt in my mind that whatever any updated gull survey said you would persist with your little cull crusade. You and people like you are a thorn in the side of society, because you continually interfere in things you know nothing about to suit your own agenda and our morally deficient press and politicians will be more than happy to tag along with your little crusade if it distracts a few more people from real environmental and societal problems that need to be addressed and gives the masses the impression they are doing something constructive.

 

[Gullplague]

I get you now, you are the wise monkey that sees no evil. The State of UK Birds 2011 available on the RSPB website along with each similar publication for the last few years. Jane has also provided you with other evidence but given you have simply ignored my posts, I assume you are not serious on this subject after all.

The report you refer to was suggested to me by DEFRA as their up to date report on the HG. I looked at this report and if you had done so you would see just how much information on the HG it contains. Zero.

I have been in correspondence with the RSPB and their chief spokesperson, Sam Woods, has informed me that Seabird 2000 is their most up to date survey on the HG.

Again, this is the problem. Out of date information being fed to the public to mislead them into thinking the HG is in decline. Local government are trying to do something about the problem and think they are powerless because DEFRA say the HG is endangered. What is wrong with a bit of honesty and a new report?

 

[Gullplague]

This is why you are getting short shrift here, your motive is completely wrong and the clear bias in your presumption of what an updated survey will find leads us to believe you have already decided what you want to do and are just looking for ways to justify doing it.

I've found it interesting that you have a couple of times mentioned the badger cull in the context of there being a similar need to take action, in that case to prevent the spread of bovine TB. In that case of course we know that the scientific evidence is that culling has little impact on the incidence of bovine TB http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009090?referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com.au%2Fscholar%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dbadger%2Bcull%2Btrial%26btnG%3D%26as_sdt%3D1%252C5%26as_sdtp%3D#search=%22badger%20cull%20trial%22 - note that this is a scientific paper by the primary researchers not some nonsense trawled from websites / newspaper articles.
But the cull will happen, not because it will make a difference, but because a minority of people who do not know what they are talking about are making enough noise about it to make it politically expedient EVEN THOUGH THE SCIENCE HAS SHOWN IT IS POINTLESS.

I have no doubt in my mind that whatever any updated gull survey said you would persist with your little cull crusade. You and people like you are a thorn in the side of society, because you continually interfere in things you know nothing about to suit your own agenda and our morally deficient press and politicians will be more than happy to tag along with your little crusade if it distracts a few more people from real environmental and societal problems that need to be addressed and gives the masses the impression they are doing something constructive.

THere is debate on the badger cull as with all culls. It simply means one side is right and th eother is wrong. IN a free society you choose which side of the debate you are on. The difficult part is in accepting that you may be wrong.

IN the case of the HG there are hundreds of articles pointing to a massive turnaround in numbers. IN my PDF I quote the RSPB admitting as much. Or, worse, admitting to complete ignorance as to numbers since Seabird 2000. There are no up to date surveys since Seabird 2000 and that is the bottom line.

My cause is for knowledge. Some on here seem fearful as to what knowledge may reveal--that HGs are in such numbers to be an epidemic? What if Seabird 2014 or whatever showed things had changed dramatically?What if the RSPB are right and their observation that there had been a "dramatic turnaround" in numbers in one area also applied to other areas over the same period of time? Why not go for knowledge and abandon the crusade for ignorance and keeping things as they are?

 

[Gullplague]

Clive / Gullplague - I am not sure I follow your point here; are you saying its a sin to like / tolerate / be ambivalent to gulls?

Phat Phingers strike again: Move the "s" from "in" a little further to the right.

People in my area are very divided over the HG. The local council are exasperated and feel they can do nothing as the government and EU diktats prevent them from population control. Neighbours war against each other over feeding gulls with many seeing them as vermin and others see them as cute birds that add joy to the seaside (this group have no idea that they are no longer a "sea" bird but have moved inland in vast numbers). We have quite a few stories of private culling with the RSPCA going to print in the local paper about declining numbers etc. There is a trial coming up in Hastings over one such private culling and Peter Rock is being called to goive expert evidence for the CPS. I believe "self-defence" is being run by the defendant and it will be interesting to see which way the jury go if it is in the Crown Court as opposed to the Magistrates Court.

We can kill burglars now that threaten our homes so it will be interesting to see if we can grease gulls that attack our properties and person!

 

[Jane Turner]

IN the case of the HG there are hundreds of articles pointing to a massive turnaround in numbers.

Only downwards. But you really are not interested in hearing that are you?

http://www.shepway.gov.uk/webapp/ly...aton M et al (2009) Birds of Conservatio.pdf

 

[Gullplague]

Thank you. It seems you know as little about physics and genetics as you do about gulls.

The reason I asked whether you are a creationist is because your debating style is more or less identical to that deployed by creationists (and climate change deniers)when presented with facts and empirical evidence: ignore, twist, cherry pick, treat opinion as fact where it suits, and fixate on material published by one or two self-styled experts (who generally have no first-hand knowledge of the subject at hand), while ignoring the overwhelming majority of real experts (professional scientists working in the field in question).

What is cherry picking to one may be citing an example of a trend to another. In a debate, as in a legal case, you present your evidence and expect the other side to present theirs. The problem with this debate is the absense of evidence from the opposition. One member of the forum recently cited the 2011 Bird Survey without realising it has no date on the HG. I doubt all on here have examined Seabird 2000 and weighed the data for the turnaround that was evident as far back as 1998 with increases throughout England and Wales since Seafarer and Seabird.

The numbers, in so far as they are accurate, are not opinions. Seabird is numbers and the trend showing larger numbers of HG as far back as 1998-2002 is clear in both roof nesters and other populations. Some show decline but England and Wales are clearly showing large increases.


Creationism is a side issue. You might have seen the program on TV last night from Oxford where they were considering the possibility that the origination of the Universe may have been ordered as opposed to random. The Physicist, whose name I do not recall, said that if it turns out the Universe if ordered it changes everything. It will support Hawking and his binary theory and how its outworking is seen in DNA. The implications for "random selection" are huge.

 

[Gullplague]

Only downwards. But you really are not interested in hearing that are you?

One article please--I can then add it to my PDF under an additional heading "REGIONS WHERE HERRING GULLS ARE DECLINING SINCE SEABIRD 2000"

If there are more to refute the many that all point to increasing numbers it would be helpful. The RSPB will want to know too as their latest articles all show increases (London, Wales, Severn Estuary). Bird Life will want to know too as they consider the HG to be of "least concern" in our region. If they had some evidence that the HGs were declining they might change their report to reflect this.

 

[Mysticete]

really...you cite an opinion piece where the person writing it mentions his confusion that "sea gulls" don't just live by the sea.

I wish you would start holding us up as an example. First off, Gulls are protected most everywhere in the US...control is severely restricted, and absent in most places. Again I lived in San Diego, a large coastal town, for about three years. I never heard any significant complaints about Gulls in the entire time there, even though we had a large and thriving population of Western Gull. Locally, Coyotes, cats, and dogs were considered much greater threats than native gulls to endangered shorebirds. Secondly, you keep going off about Herring Gulls, but they are probably not even the most common species in the US. In Michigan, where I lived, the smaller Ring-billed Gull was the dominant species, and Herring were uncommon most of the year. My guess is that was the species of gull mentioned in that article were Ring-billed. Locally I only see small number of Herring Gulls a year. The commonest Gull in Wyoming is California, the same bird celebrated in Utah for saving the farmers from a locust swarm!

 

[Wildmoreway]

In the UK I would say that the Black-headed Gull is far more numerous than the Herring Gull, especially when you go much more than 10 or 15 miles inland. When I lived in the Crewe area of Cheshire (about 25 miles inland), Herring Gulls were present and could be seen daily but not in large numbers, on the other hand Black-headed Gull were very common. In places where water birds were being fed by the public Winterley Pool, Nantwich Lake and similar places the gulls that were keenly chasing food offered in fair number were Black-headed Gulls, you seldom saw a Herring Gull in those situations.

In truth though I think that whilst not their prime habitat ,some gull species do occur inland locally on a natural basis, and Herring Gulls are one such species One Herring Gull memory I have is of beeing on a stationary train at Shap in Cumbria (950ft above sea level and about 30 miles inland) and seeing three Herring Gulls probing through the snow in a field just over the fence from the railway. They actually looked perfectly at home.

A regular Herring Gull activity on grass is where they stamp their feet to make worms come to the surface .. this does to me look like the behaviour of a bird that is naturally at home on dry land.

 

[Nightranger]

The report you refer to was suggested to me by DEFRA as their up to date report on the HG. I looked at this report and if you had done so you would see just how much information on the HG it contains. Zero.

I have read it and as a former RSPB employee I am well aware of the existence of State of UK Birds as a regular publication. It was the obvious first point of reference when you started spouting about 'a remarkable turnaround in herring gulls populations' allegedly released by the RSPB. I therefore assumed that any information would be reflected in the document but it still states a national decline in the herring gull, confirming my original answer to you that any such press release by the RSPB must have been talking about a local population. Unfortunately, with so little information to go on, I am unable to find the piece that you are referring to unless you can give a link so I can look it over in more detail.

I have been in correspondence with the RSPB and their chief spokesperson, Sam Woods, has informed me that Seabird 2000 is their most up to date survey on the HG.

I am not sure who Sam Woods is and no Google search shows this name in association with the RSPB. I left almost five years ago so it is more than possible that this is a new member of staff but I would have expected you to have been in correspondence with Andre Farrar or Graham Madge given the subject you have been discussing. However, if you confirm where Sam is based and his/her role I would be delighted to contact and find out what information has been given to you.

Again, this is the problem. Out of date information being fed to the public to mislead them into thinking the HG is in decline. Local government are trying to do something about the problem and think they are powerless because DEFRA say the HG is endangered. What is wrong with a bit of honesty and a new report?

Good try! DEFRA is not saying anything of the kind. Data listing is a kind of heads-up about any species in decline and it can work in a number of ways. At the lowest level of alert is Amber Data listing on a national basis with a number of sub-groups from reduced occurence to reduced breeding numbers at a moderate level. A higher level alert is Red Data listing and this also can include a national listing and may or may not reflect the global status of the species. Dramatic as the decline in the British herring gull population may be, it is not necessarily a global view and even if it was, the Data listing may not say Endangered until the population reaches a certain limit. In the case of the European herring gull (Larus argentatus) it is listed as of Least Concern meaning it is a population in decline but there is no reason to think the species will go extinct but certainly not an argument for culling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Herring_Gull

http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/106003227/0

http://jncc.defra.gov.uk/page-2887

 

[Allen S. Moore]

THere is debate on the badger cull as with all culls. It simply means one side is right and th eother is wrong. IN a free society you choose which side of the debate you are on. The difficult part is in accepting that you may be wrong.

You have difficulty with that, don't you!

 

[Gullplague]

really...you cite an opinion piece where the person writing it mentions his confusion that "sea gulls" don't just live by the sea.

I wish you would start holding us up as an example. First off, Gulls are protected most everywhere in the US...control is severely restricted, and absent in most places. Again I lived in San Diego, a large coastal town, for about three years. I never heard any significant complaints about Gulls in the entire time there, even though we had a large and thriving population of Western Gull. Locally, Coyotes, cats, and dogs were considered much greater threats than native gulls to endangered shorebirds. Secondly, you keep going off about Herring Gulls, but they are probably not even the most common species in the US. In Michigan, where I lived, the smaller Ring-billed Gull was the dominant species, and Herring were uncommon most of the year. My guess is that was the species of gull mentioned in that article were Ring-billed. Locally I only see small number of Herring Gulls a year. The commonest Gull in Wyoming is California, the same bird celebrated in Utah for saving the farmers from a locust swarm!

I lived in San Diego off an on for many years and most recently in Carlsbad which is about 30 miles north of the main city. I have photographed that stretch of the coast extensively and also saw no problems with the local gulls. I never saw any inland or nesting on rooftops and am not aware of any complaints about them.

CA does seem to have a problem with a population explosion of gulls in the SF region where predation has threatened other species according to Ackerman's report in 2006:

"The South Bay California Gull population has grown from less than 1,000 breeding birds in 1982 to over 33,000 in 2006. This population boom has resulted in large resident flocks of gulls that will opportunistically prey on other species, particularly the eggs and nestlings of other birds. Seriously threatened birds that share the same South Bay habitat include the Snowy Plover and California Least Tern, while less-threatened birds including Black-necked Stilts, American Avocets, Forster's Terns, and Caspian Terns are also preyed upon by the abnormally large flocks of California Gulls. Efforts are underway to reduce habitat for this species and find other ways to disperse the large numbers of gulls. (Ackerman et al. 2006)Ackerman, J. T., J. Y. Takekawa, C. Strong, N. Athearn, and A. Rex. 2006. California Gull distribution, abundance, and predation on waterbird eggs and chicks in South San Francisco Bay. Final Report, U. S. Geological Survey, Western Ecological and Research Center, Davis and Vallejo, CA. 61pp.​

The point that is made is that large population increases in various gull species (the CA gull being smaller and probably less aggressive than the Herring Gull) is placing other species onto the endangererd list as in the CA case.

What surprises me is that no one seems to see the HG (and similar) as a threat at all despite the evidence and examples where other nations are culling to help other species survive.

The US is more proactive because they recognise that a threat to bio-diversity calls for intervention. In the UK, DEFRA and their feeder organisation, the RSPB, just roll out the same misleading information to every person or body that raises an alarm--"Seabird 2000 says the HG was in decline therefore, 14 years on, it must still be in decline....."

The US take action:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ocal-infestation-seagulls--SHOOTING-them.html
Police in Detroit have resorted to shooting a flock of seagulls that has been terrorising parts of the city. Officers killed between 100 and 200 birds on Thursday morning in an attempt to cull some of the thousands that have invaded../


http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seagulls-being-harassed-killed-in-Olympia-168091026.html
OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Government workers have shot 150 seagulls at an Olympia marina this year, and some locals are now wondering why the protected birds are being killed.

"Sea" gulls have moved to Detroit:

http://womc.cbslocal.com/2012/06/19/seagulls-invade-southgate/
You wouldn’t believe how many of these things are hanging out on the roof and in the lot! Needless to say, the building and lot are a mess, as the birds have been…ummm…marking their territory, creating a possible health hazard.

http://article.wn.com/view/2012/08/28/150_gulls_killed_at_Swantown/
The News Tribune2012-08-28: A U.S. Department of Agriculture employee has killed about 150 seagulls with a pellet gun at Swantown Marina since Oct. 1, 2011, under a gull management contract with the Port of Olympia designed to reduce gull droppings, the agency’s district supervisor for Western Washington said Monday. The gull management program at Swantown Marina mainly uses nonlethal means to control the gull population there, said Matt Cleland, the USDA’s district supervisor. Cleland said the USDA employee, who is a wildlife specialist, has dispersed about 30,000 seagulls in 11 months using nonlethal and lethal means.... more »

http://www.carmelacanzonieri.com/3740/readings/Wildlife/gulls in urban env.pdf


The bottom line is that, in the US, the government have taken action in dealing with the massive increases in gull numbers--the Larus arentatus type is specifically named as the problem species due to population growth (at page 2 of the body of the above report). The ABSTRACT outlines the nature of the problem in the US--denied in the UK.

We seem to be in the dark in the UK with no recent data or surveys upon which to draw any conclusions. This is why I am rallying support to push DEFRA to take action. 2 MPs so far and a few bird enthusiasts including Peter Rock (who is not advocating a cull!) and maybe--just maybe, the RSPB as I detect a slight softening in their position having admitted SB2000 is the only data they have on the HG.

 

[Gullplague]

You have difficulty with that, don't you!

No. I am waiting for reports that demonstrate a contrary position.

 

[Gullplague]

I have read it and as a former RSPB employee I am well aware of the existence of State of UK Birds as a regular publication. It was the obvious first point of reference when you started spouting about 'a remarkable turnaround in herring gulls populations' allegedly released by the RSPB. I therefore assumed that any information would be reflected in the document but it still states a national decline in the herring gull, confirming my original answer to you that any such press release by the RSPB must have been talking about a local population. Unfortunately, with so little information to go on, I am unable to find the piece that you are referring to unless you can give a link so I can look it over in more detail.



I am not sure who Sam Woods is and no Google search shows this name in association with the RSPB. I left almost five years ago so it is more than possible that this is a new member of staff but I would have expected you to have been in correspondence with Andre Farrar or Graham Madge given the subject you have been discussing. However, if you confirm where Sam is based and his/her role I would be delighted to contact and find out what information has been given to you.



Good try! DEFRA is not saying anything of the kind. Data listing is a kind of heads-up about any species in decline and it can work in a number of ways. At the lowest level of alert is Amber Data listing on a national basis with a number of sub-groups from reduced occurence to reduced breeding numbers at a moderate level. A higher level alert is Red Data listing and this also can include a national listing and may or may not reflect the global status of the species. Dramatic as the decline in the British herring gull population may be, it is not necessarily a global view and even if it was, the Data listing may not say Endangered until the population reaches a certain limit. In the case of the European herring gull (Larus argentatus) it is listed as of Least Concern meaning it is a population in decline but there is no reason to think the species will go extinct but certainly not an argument for culling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Herring_Gull

http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/106003227/0

http://jncc.defra.gov.uk/page-2887

Its Sam (Samantha) Stokes--not sure where Woods came from! Her reference is in an email to me dated 30th August 2012. It may be infamous now as it trapped DEFRA who had been telling me that they have up to date data and I asked what data and they referred me to the RSPB. Samantha was refreshingly honest and I hope I have not "dropped her in it" for being honest.

No one is necessarily arguing for a cull. My argument is for knowledge. Seabird 2000 is too old to be of any use. Peter Rock is also NOT calling for a cull--he wants another survey which will presumably be consistent with his recent counts in the Severn Estuary region. He has noted new populations in that area which means they are continuing to spread. Rock's report to the House back in 2005 suggested 1m breeding pairs by now and I think we may already have twice that many.

I have correspondence from Andy Symes at birdlife and he informs me that:
"Unfortunately the Herring Gull is very much in decline in the UK and was in fact added to the UK red list of species of conservation concern for the first time in 2009 (http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/BoCC_tcm9-217852.pdf) owing to declines of over 50% in both breeding and wintering populations in the UK since 1969."

They all roll out the same mantra and it is based on Seabird 2000 which compared Seafarer with SCR and we are talking 1975!

The person dealing at DEFRA is

Tim Andrews

Wild Birds Policy Advisor

Telephone - 0117 372 3603

Temple Quay House

Bristol


[email protected];

 

[Robin Edwards]

GP - I find your points very difficult to follow whilst you cite information regarding gulls from US, Argentina etc but then you focus on threats to biodiversity in the UK from our HG - and you're still ignoring that you have been provided with relatively current trends showing a declining population.

A direct question of you....

What up to date evidence do you have on UK biodiversity / species that are directly threatened by Herring Gull? (it sounds so far that all we have are a few disgruntled and possibly misguided people).

You seem to be bent on wanting BF posters to evidence population reports to show you something that isn't true. How about some real evidence of your own?

 

[Allen S. Moore]

No. I am waiting for reports that demonstrate a contrary position.

You've had plenty in the replies to your posts.

If you are waiting for a repeat of Seabird 2000, etc, I suspect that you will be waiting a long time. As I have already mentioned, a complete survey of herring gulls nesting in these islands is very unlikely as a "one off." Some colonies are on small islands which are difficult of access, such that special trips would need to be arranged and paid for, only to have the risk of the trips being cancelled because of storms. Much more likely in the next, maybe, 10-20 years (given the economic climate), would be to tag a survey of herring gulls on to surveys of all the other seabird species, as happened in around 2000. Nobody would pay a boatman to go out to remote islands to count herring gulls, but they might to count all the seabirds present, such is the biodiversity of these remote places away from human interference. As I've said once before, sufficient ornithologists, both professional and amateur, will also be needed to do the counting accurately and safely. You seem to ignore the practicalities of what you are demanding, indicative yet again of your blinkered viewpoint.

Talking about blinkered, you chose not to reply to the point that I made in #173.

Until a complete seabird survey can be afforded by the nations in these islands, the best way forward in keeping an eye on herring gull population levels is for as many colonies as possible to be surveyed for the Seabird Monitoring Programme.

 

[Gullplague]

GP - I find your points very difficult to follow whilst you cite information regarding gulls from US, Argentina etc but then you focus on threats to biodiversity in the UK from our HG - and you're still ignoring that you have been provided with relatively current trends showing a declining population.

A direct question of you....

What up to date evidence do you have on UK biodiversity / species that are directly threatened by Herring Gull? (it sounds so far that all we have are a few disgruntled and possibly misguided people).

You seem to be bent on wanting BF posters to evidence population reports to show you something that isn't true. How about some real evidence of your own?

I think you have discovered the problem that we have in this country. There is very little information other than that which is reported in the press because local government and individuals are becoming desperate to find a solution. They see their towns being overrun with gulls that runs counter to the DEFRA/RSPB mantra that they have declined 50% since Seafarer in 1975. The digruntled people you refer to are huge in number and widespread. The hundreds of reports from local government and newspaper articles contain almost endless lists of people who have been attacked, or whose quality of life has been destroyed by noise and aggressive behaviour preventing the use of gardens and recreation areas. Schools have had to keep children inside the building for many months in the Spring and Summer due to attacks.

The reports of threat to bio-diversity are mostly from overseas where similar conditions exist--that is, a population explosion. If the HG is causing problems everywhere else why should we be immune when we are seeing a similar population explosion? The problem is DEFRA and the blinkered approach of the RSPB who close their ears to anyone suggesing a bird might be a source of a serious problem.

Here are the only reports I am aware of that pertain to the threat to other species the HG presents to the UK region:

http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/speciesfactsheet.php?id=3227
Conservation actions underway
Preventative and control measures are frequently used against this species as it is regarded as a pest and a threat to many other colonial bird species (it usurps habitats and preys upon bird eggs and young

http://www.swpho.nhs.uk/resource/item.aspx?RID=24280
Threat to humans

http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/news_features/2004/seagulls.shtml
ditto for 2004

http://www.ypte.org.uk/animal/gull-herring-/125
In more natural habitats, herring gulls have caused problems for delicate species such as puffins and terns. Serious competition for space on cliffs, islands and dunes causes the gulls to drive other birds away, depriving them of breeding grounds. It has been necessary to cull in some areas in order to reduce the gulls' numbers.

http://www.seabirdgroup.org.uk/files/conference_2004_abstracts.pdf
Page 13 “We fitted mathematical models to counts of Atlantic Puffin Fratercula arctica burrows (representing breeding pairs) over time at different locations within the breeding colony. Models incorporated an impact of Herring Larus argentatus and Lesser Black-backed Gulls Larus fuscus on puffin population recruitment, the magnitude of which was dependent on gull density, and a crowding advantage of puffins in their interaction with gulls. The parameterised models predict decreasing recruitment to the puffin breeding population with increasing gull density, and a critical population density below which puffin population recruitment is negative.”

Exploding gthe myth that hawks present a threat to gull:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5505745/Peregrine-falcons-under-attack-by-seagulls.html
A nest of peregrine falcons on top of a 15th century church spire has come under attack by seagulls.
The powerful falcons have been plagued by gulls ever since and the RSPB and Worcester City Council have been monitoring the nest in an attempt to protect them. Andrew Shepherd from the RSPB, said: "Gulls usually swarm around the falcons when they fly, protecting themselves and trying to attack other birds - which is what happened here" (Even large eagles: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...agle-ambushed-Norwegian-fjord-brave-gull.html).

My PDF in the OP sets out some articles from overseas where studies of these gulls is more recent. In the UK we face ignorance on the part of the RSPB and intransigence on the part of DEFRA both of which make their case based on information contained in Seabird 2000 which bases it numbers and % declines (and increases, especially for England & Wales) on data collected over the period 1998-2002.

 

[Gullplague]

You've had plenty in the replies to your posts.

If you are waiting for a repeat of Seabird 2000, etc, I suspect that you will be waiting a long time. As I have already mentioned, a complete survey of herring gulls nesting in these islands is very unlikely as a "one off." Some colonies are on small islands which are difficult of access, such that special trips would need to be arranged and paid for, only to have the risk of the trips being cancelled because of storms. Much more likely in the next, maybe, 10-20 years (given the economic climate), would be to tag a survey of herring gulls on to surveys of all the other seabird species, as happened in around 2000. Nobody would pay a boatman to go out to remote islands to count herring gulls, but they might to count all the seabirds present, such is the biodiversity of these remote places away from human interference. As I've said once before, sufficient ornithologists, both professional and amateur, will also be needed to do the counting accurately and safely. You seem to ignore the practicalities of what you are demanding, indicative yet again of your blinkered viewpoint.

Talking about blinkered, you chose not to reply to the point that I made in #173.

Until a complete seabird survey can be afforded by the nations in these islands, the best way forward in keeping an eye on herring gull population levels is for as many colonies as possible to be surveyed for the Seabird Monitoring Programme.

The precedent has already been set with Seafarer, SCR and Seabird. If they carried out a national survey before, they can do so again. There is a furore over Cameron's foreign aid budget--there is enough being given to India to fund dozens, if not hundreds of Seabirds!

Peter Rock believes a satellite assisted count could be carried out--bearing in mind that a camera with a very high pixel count would have enough resolution to do the job.

PR is still doing counts in the Severn Estuary and if other bird experts did the same for their region we might get a national picture. But at present it seems that most see it as unecessary because they do not see a problem. The blinkers are still on.

This is from his most recent counts:

The only area they (DEFRA) can’t argue about is the Severn Estuary Region – because I’ve assessed the majority of the region’s urban colonies (and I keep finding new ones – 2 this year with 5 pairs apiece). Cardiff (2011) was 3,300 pairs, Bristol (2010) was 2,500 pairs, Gloucester (2009) was 2,900 pairs, Bath (2012) was 1,100 pairs and so on. With circa 25,000 pairs in the region and another 7 regions in UK & Ireland, a national population of 100,000+ pairs seems perfectly reasonable
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If DEFRA can't afford it they could at least stop misleading the public about the declining numbers and accept there is a problem otherwise every large local government health officer wouldn't be investing millions of pounds in useless deterrents. The government in the Hague have suggested issuing every housholder in the Netherlands with a net! All this will do is move the gulls onto Belgium.

 

[Gullplague]

I had a look at your link and it gives a decrease of 35% for my local herring gull colony, Peel to Glen Maye, not an increase. If you cannot read your own links ...

I suppose it explains how you only see increases while others record decreases!

You are right--the numbers I copied were from the Isle of May not Man.

They were up 35% since SCR. Quite a few offshore colonies show increases but the IOM does indeed show declines. This may account for your approach that if they were going down where you live they must be going down on the Isle of May and the rest of the country?

Glasgow (+133%), Aberdeen(+1260%), Inverness (+160%) and Edinburgh (+165%) all show large increases as does most of England (+38% overall for coastal colonies including the IOM) and Wales (+26%) which may suggest a migration to less inclement regions?

Roof nesters for the entire UK (incl RI) were up 582% since 1976.

It seems that the declines that the RSPB are on about must be restricted to a smaller region over the earlier periods.

 

[Robin Edwards]

So GP,

You repeat youself but haven't given any instances where HG in the UK is affecting UK biodiversity. HG will naturally predate other nesting birds and like other species, will piratise feeding smaller seabirds such as Puffin and Tern. That doesn't mean their driving them to UK extirpation though - but then many have already tried to explain that to you haven't they?

I said I wouldn't comment further on this pointless thread but have shown a weakness and transcended to the light .... sadly I'm no nearer to seeing you demonstrate the flaw in your approach though.