Are Herring Gulls a threat to our bio-diversity? (1 Viewer)

[Nightranger]

This is from his most recent counts:

The only area they (DEFRA) can’t argue about is the Severn Estuary Region – because I’ve assessed the majority of the region’s urban colonies (and I keep finding new ones – 2 this year with 5 pairs apiece). Cardiff (2011) was 3,300 pairs, Bristol (2010) was 2,500 pairs, Gloucester (2009) was 2,900 pairs, Bath (2012) was 1,100 pairs and so on. With circa 25,000 pairs in the region and another 7 regions in UK & Ireland, a national population of 100,000+ pairs seems perfectly reasonable
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If DEFRA can't afford it they could at least stop misleading the public about the declining numbers and accept there is a problem otherwise every large local government health officer wouldn't be investing millions of pounds in useless deterrents. The government in the Hague have suggested issuing every housholder in the Netherlands with a net! All this will do is move the gulls onto Belgium.

Ah-ha! So there have been recent counts but only where they support your position. I really do not see a way forward with this debate until you accept other counter-evidence that has been put to you. I find myself repeating points in every post replying to you and here again, citing local increases is not the same as saying the herring gull has reveresed its national trend - a decline.

BTW, it looks like you may get your wish about a new seabird survey although it looks as though it may not start until 2014, assuming it takes place at all under the current economic situation.

 

[Nightranger]

Glasgow (+133%), Aberdeen(+1260%), Inverness (+160%) and Edinburgh (+165%) all show large increases as does most of England (+38% overall for coastal colonies including the IOM) and Wales (+26%) which may suggest a migration to less inclement regions?

Roof nesters for the entire UK (incl RI) were up 582% since 1976.

It seems that the declines that the RSPB are on about must be restricted to a smaller region over the earlier periods.

Put some actual figures into this information and the picture changes considerably and far from the RSPB talking about smaller regions, they are actually talking about the national picture and not a few dozen new urban nests that skew percentages. This is misrepresentation M'lud!

 

[Nightranger]

Its Sam (Samantha) Stokes--not sure where Woods came from! Her reference is in an email to me dated 30th August 2012. It may be infamous now as it trapped DEFRA who had been telling me that they have up to date data and I asked what data and they referred me to the RSPB. Samantha was refreshingly honest and I hope I have not "dropped her in it" for being honest.

This is interesting:-
http://www.theargus.co.uk/opinion/letters/9909453.Seagulls__try_to_admire_them_if_you_can/

As is this (referencing Big Schools Bird Watch but NOT a population census):-
http://www.rspb.org.uk/media/releas...berkshire-in-the-rspbs-big-schools-birdwatch-

This talks about increasing urban gulls but NOT a national increase:-
http://www.bexhillobserver.net/news/letters/handy-seagull-tips-1-4213178

I suspect you have misrepresented the views of Samantha Stokes here going off these links.

I have correspondence from Andy Symes at birdlife and he informs me that:
"Unfortunately the Herring Gull is very much in decline in the UK and was in fact added to the UK red list of species of conservation concern for the first time in 2009 (http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/BoCC_tcm9-217852.pdf) owing to declines of over 50% in both breeding and wintering populations in the UK since 1969."

...but of course, it goes against your ideas so you immediately dismiss it out of hand. Incidentally, when are you going to start slagging off the IUCN?

 

[Nightranger]

You are right--the numbers I copied were from the Isle of May not Man.

They were up 35% since SCR. Quite a few offshore colonies show increases but the IOM does indeed show declines. This may account for your approach that if they were going down where you live they must be going down on the Isle of May and the rest of the country?

This is so bad it is brilliant! It is pointless going after Allen now that you have been caught misrepresenting data. Indeed, I do not see Allen making the assumption you accuse him of, which is a feeble way of trying to get yourself out of the hole you have dug for yourself. You got your wish and this thread tops a few Google searches now but you have found that there are too many good people on BF and they CAN give you a run for your money. It is sad that you are not brave enough to reveal your true name (that is your right and your choice) because this thread will be a lasting testament to your inability to grasp anything about bird population dynamics. For those about to crash, we salute you!

 

[Wildmoreway]

There is no point in continuing this thread as it must be perfectly obvious to everyone that the OP is stark raving bonkers!

 

[Allen S. Moore]

This is so bad it is brilliant! It is pointless going after Allen now that you have been caught misrepresenting data. Indeed, I do not see Allen making the assumption you accuse him of, which is a feeble way of trying to get yourself out of the hole you have dug for yourself. You got your wish and this thread tops a few Google searches now but you have found that there are too many good people on BF and they CAN give you a run for your money. It is sad that you are not brave enough to reveal your true name (that is your right and your choice) because this thread will be a lasting testament to your inability to grasp anything about bird population dynamics. For those about to crash, we salute you!

Don't worry, Nightranger. I try to treat everybody with respect, but that policy has failed with the blinkered OP. I enjoy a good debate like the next one, but that is what this thread is not - people who post on it offer truthful answers to the points that he makes, but he totally fails to take any notice of what they say, with one or two condescending exceptions.

Nightranger, of course you are correct in saying that I would not make that assumption!

 

[Mono]

I know it is best to leave this thread alone, but it is akin to those doorstep discussion with Jehovah's Witnesses, there is a certain element of sport about it.

The OP mentions a cull as a means to eliminate the dangers to human health and welfare, yet wants to "prove" an expansion in population to justify the cull. Is it not the case that if there is a proven danger to human health then there should be no qualification as to the rarity or otherwise of the wildlife causing it. Should a colony of Great White Egrets or Spoonbills take to breeding at Heathrow airport then the risks to air safety would take precedence. So if locally a Herring Gull population is posing the level of danger to human health and welfare that the OP suggests then it is irrelevant what the total population is. There is provision in legislation to kill even Schedule 1 birds if there is proven danger to human health. If there is such a danger then why aren't local authorities or even individuals applying for such permissions?

There is also the separate point as regards humans "owning" nature, the OP talks of "our biodiversity" in the possessive.

 

[Robin Edwards]

"Herring gulls are on the UK red list of threatened species as a result of significant nationwide declines in recent decades."

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/326824-what-a-dummy?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=News

Seeing the title of this RSPB report and imagined it might be about this thread

 

[Gullplague]

Ah-ha! So there have been recent counts but only where they support your position. I really do not see a way forward with this debate until you accept other counter-evidence that has been put to you. I find myself repeating points in every post replying to you and here again, citing local increases is not the same as saying the herring gull has reveresed its national trend - a decline.

BTW, it looks like you may get your wish about a new seabird survey although it looks as though it may not start until 2014, assuming it takes place at all under the current economic situation.

Yes, from a comrade in arms, Peter Rock. We are all pressuring DEFRA to get a count done so that the size of the problem is knoinw before an action plan is drawn up. PR is not held in hiogh regard by DEFRA because he assisted MPs in previous Parliamentary debates calling their information and methods of deterrence into question.

Do you have information about a possible Seabird 2014?

I am working with a few individuals that have a couple of MPs on board to press this again in Parliament, mainly on health and safety grounds now that a regional health observatory have flagged it up and Scotland has taken action to reduce the numbers of HG on their patch. There may be some legal issues because the goverment cannot ignore health and safety and it appears Scotland may have set a precedent in this area (sleep deprivation is a health concern because it can lead to secondary health issues).

 

[Gullplague]

"Herring gulls are on the UK red list of threatened species as a result of significant nationwide declines in recent decades."

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/326824-what-a-dummy?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=News

Seeing the title of this RSPB report and imagined it might be about this thread

They know they are lying because their PR person Sam Stokes is on record stating the RSPB have no data since Seabird. But it is interesting that they refer to recent "decades" as their data is based on Seafarer in 1975 compared with SCR in the early 80's and these 2 form the benchmark for Seabird as to % numbers. If Winston were to comment he would say: Lies, damn lies and statistics.

I will FWD this latest article on to the lobbying group--Thanks.

I see this thread has now gone to 10 pages. I must admit it has turned out to be very interesting and it may well get a look in by the RSPB, DEFRA and a few others.

 

[Gullplague]

I know it is best to leave this thread alone, but it is akin to those doorstep discussion with Jehovah's Witnesses, there is a certain element of sport about it.

The OP mentions a cull as a means to eliminate the dangers to human health and welfare, yet wants to "prove" an expansion in population to justify the cull. Is it not the case that if there is a proven danger to human health then there should be no qualification as to the rarity or otherwise of the wildlife causing it. Should a colony of Great White Egrets or Spoonbills take to breeding at Heathrow airport then the risks to air safety would take precedence. So if locally a Herring Gull population is posing the level of danger to human health and welfare that the OP suggests then it is irrelevant what the total population is. There is provision in legislation to kill even Schedule 1 birds if there is proven danger to human health. If there is such a danger then why aren't local authorities or even individuals applying for such permissions?

There is also the separate point as regards humans "owning" nature, the OP talks of "our biodiversity" in the possessive.

This is true. My objective is to persuade DEFRA and their feeder organisation (RSPB) from misleading the public about the gull population being in decline when they have no idea what is happening.

The whole country is desperate to find ways of limiting numbers and preventing their spread to the entire country. All they get from DEFRA is that this can't be happening because Seafarer in 1975 set a benchmark and according to our 1998-2002 survey..........

Humans have a duty of care over nature--hence all the rules against polluting the air and waterways etc. We also cull things when they threaten other species such as rats (why are there never any complaints when these are culled?), Badgers, pidgeons, ferrel cats etc. You might say the HG is a sea bird as it has webbed feet and has historically haunted our coastline and offshore Islands. As it is now inland as far from the sea as you can get (Brum has a huge problem with them--the Amercians are shocked to see them moving into the Great Lakes from traditional sea areas) we might say it is not natural and when something as problematic as a HG moves inland in vast numbers something has gotta give.


___________________

Off topic but here is a tip on dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses:

As them if they believe they are made up of a mind body and spirit.

They always say yes.

As them if they belive in the Trinity.

They always say no--this is one of their key things they go on about.

Ask them if they believe we are made in God's image.

They will say yes but they often start to feel trapped.

Then tell them that if we are made in God's image and have 3 parts (mind body and spirit) God must also be in three too: trinity!

I am now blacklisted on the JW's rounds and never get bothered by them

 

[Gullplague]

Don't worry, Nightranger. I try to treat everybody with respect, but that policy has failed with the blinkered OP. I enjoy a good debate like the next one, but that is what this thread is not - people who post on it offer truthful answers to the points that he makes, but he totally fails to take any notice of what they say, with one or two condescending exceptions.

Nightranger, of course you are correct in saying that I would not make that assumption!

Blinkered?

I have yet to see any reports, data, articles to support Seabird. My whole point is that we need a new survey because the HG numbers have exploded and they are a threat to our bio-diversity (most articles on the latter point are from other countries who are awake to the problem).

Many on here are following the RSPB/Mantra: if it is a bird there is no problem. Any increases in numbers is just imagiation. They are not a threat to anyone or to any animal....

The only person who has anything recent is Peter Rock and he agrees there is a problem (he does NOT support a cull--at least not as of the date of this post). Does anyone have anything to refute the suggestion there is a problem with gull numbers? Just one article with a link will do provided it is not Seabird as that is the point of contention.

Just one?

Even a short one?

A word?

Something??

If there is nothing it will help those who are gong to run thsi by defra one more time via the Bachbench Committee. But it needs to be something.

 

[James Emerson]

I am temporarily breaking my self-imposed exile from this thread because of what I perceive to be shear arrogance.

The whole country is desperate to find ways of limiting numbers and preventing their spread to the entire country. All they get from DEFRA is that this can't be happening because Seafarer in 1975 set a benchmark and according to our 1998-2002 survey..........

No, no, and more no. The whole country is not desperate to find ways of limiting gull numbers. Many people couldnt care less, and some are against it. You do not represent the views of the entire country - please accept this.

Does anyone have anything to refute the suggestion there is a problem with gull numbers? Just one article with a link will do provided it is not Seabird as that is the point of contention.

Just one?

Even a short one?

A word?

Something??

If there is nothing it will help those who are gong to run thsi by defra one more time via the Bachbench Committee. But it needs to be something.

I typed in "Herring Gull Survey" into google, something which I presume you have done in your research. The fourth hit is from the Cumbria bird club, who surveyed the gulls of Cumbria in 2009. They found that the number of breeding pairs of Herring Gulls in Cumbria had declined 70% between Seabird 2000 and their survey in 2009. The paper is here: http://www.cumbriabirdclub.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/CBC_Numbers_Distribution_and_Population_Trends_of_Breeding_Large_Gulls_in_Cumbria_Seabird_24%202012.pdf
The key data is in the table on page 96.

You keep asking for one study that shows a decline since 2000 - well here is one, and you could have easily found it.

Regards,
James

 

[Robin Edwards]

taken from another BF thread - I think this is evidence of your problems in Brighton GP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suYz5SHFHyA

So, no Plague, no loss of biodiversity, (seems you've dodged answering my question GP), no apocolypse and no conspiracy theory against the RSPB after all.

If RSPB and DEFRA are bored enough to read this thread I think it will demonstrate more about your good self than the justification for your crusade against Herring Gulls.

 

[MJB]

They know they are lying because their PR person Sam Stokes is on record stating the RSPB have no data since Seabird....

If this is your best shot at a substitute for reasoning (demonstrating a persistent inability to discriminate between the weight and authority of various sources), I doubt if you will gain any converts from Bird Forum membership.o

If Winston were to comment he would say: Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Why I am not surprised that you misquoted here? I believe the phrase was first coined by Henry Courtney, the British economist and politician (1832-1918), later Lord Courtney, but is often attributed to Disraeli.:-C||

Somehow I think Winston might have thought of saying about Gullplague: "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." (actually said about Stafford Cripps)
MJB
PS Do tell us more about ferrel cats...3

 

[Jane Turner]

There is already an ongoing 3 year population study trying to identify the cause of Herring Gull declines - mentioned here... www.puffinisland.org.uk/news/2012gullcensus. Skokholm and Walney are also taking part to my knowledge.

Wintering population figures up to 2004 are given here http://webs.uvigo.es/yeonkim/papers/Kim2006(JZool270)b.pdf

 

[redeyedvideo]

Yes, from a comrade in arms, Peter Rock. We are all pressuring DEFRA to get a count done so that the size of the problem is knoinw

Does Peter Rock know you are citing him on this thread? I think he would be very annoyed if he did.

 

[Allen S. Moore]

Blinkered?

I have yet to see any reports, data, articles to support Seabird. My whole point is that we need a new survey because the HG numbers have exploded and they are a threat to our bio-diversity (most articles on the latter point are from other countries who are awake to the problem).

Duh! I have explained how a new survey is unlikely to be funded at present. Your reaction is blinkered as you come over as ignoring my explanation, as if I hadn't made it. If you weren't exhibiting this state of being blinkered you would reply differently, maybe along the lines of making a business case for a new survey or asking for help in doing so. Of course, you may just be hoping that your hero Mr Rock will do that.

Another manifestation of you being blinkered is your constant claiming that herring gulls threaten biodiversity despite explanations by myself and others with direct experience of observing and studying that biodiversity that the threat is greatly overstated. Of course, don't start typing about swallows or swifts in Rome, as you use the phrase "our biodiversity," unless you see yourself as a European, of course!

Actually, I have experience of another major southern European city, Barcelona, which I have visited on about 12 occasions. In spring a great feature of the old city just behind the port is the flocks of swifts swooping along the canyon-like streets. In the port there are often flocks hundreds strong of yellow-legged gulls (closely related to herring gulls, of course), and some of them fly out over the city. The swifts co-exist with them, as they do in other southern European cities. Feral pigeons are the most numerous species of bird in Barcelona and I have seen yellow-legged gulls predating on them. The city is trying to discourage the pigeons, so the gulls could almost be said to be doing the city a favour.

Many on here are following the RSPB/Mantra ....

Interestingly, you have your own Mantra and churn it out, post after post.

 

[fugl]

Arguing with Gullplague is an exercise in futility. He's a lawyer & as such isn't interested in facts (or logic or science) but only in making a "case" for his client (himself in this instance presumably). He's not going to concede anything. Why should he? It might weaken his "case".

 

[Nightranger]

Do you have information about a possible Seabird 2014?

Unfortunately not! I found reference to a possible survey when searching through various Googler searches. The only thing in this entire thread that I would welcome is the implementation of a new survey because it would leave you with nowhere to go with all this nonsense (yes, I am THAT confident).