SeldomPerched
Well-known member
And vice versa :=)
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Are Leica UV HD+ 7x42 or 8x42 bins as punchy/contrasty as their 8x32 Ultravid HD + bins are? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ZDHart
- Start date
John M Robinson
Well-known member
This is a two year old thread, just wondering how you like your 7x42s after all this time? I have an 8x42 BR that’s been great all these years.
brocknroller
porromaniac
As you can see above, there area different opinions on Leica focusers, one saying he's never had a bad one, another implying it's a crap shoot.
I wonder if the Leica's being greaseless focusers plays a factor? As Hocus Focus, who I haven't seen posting on the binoculars forums in a long while, wrote in 2012:
"Leica's greasless focuser seems like a feature better suited for hunters than birders."
Ditto that for Swaros. Most birders don't use their binoculars in well below freezing weather but hunters do. I prefer grease focusers, even though they can get a bit looser in warmer weather and a bit stiffer in colder weather. But most of the time, they turn smoothly. Being a fair-weather birder, grease focusers suits me best.
Zeiss seems to have made a compromise to please both market segments by using greaseless focusers, but making the travel focus short, so you toggle through the entire range quickly, which also enables a very close focus for birders, butterfliers, and buggers. For me, this compromise doesn't work. Zeiss roof focusers turn too fast for my taste, the Zeiss Terra the worst, the Conquest a bit better but still too fast. I've also owned a Zeiss Jena 8x50 Octarem porro, which had a great focuser, but that was a grease focuser.
I've had more binoculars over the years than I could keep count of, but most were Nikons, and out of all the Nikons (6 SEs, 5 E2s, 5 LXs, 3 WFs, 2 EDGs, 2 XL Zooms, 1 Sporter 1, and 1 E), there has not been a lot of variation in the focusers, such that it's not a crap shoot if I will get a good focuser or not.
The only Nikon model that had significant variation was my first 8x32 LX and second pair. The first LX's fast focuser had almost no tension like a Terra ED, the second had just the right amount to control the fast focuser. The 8x42 LX and 10x42 LX and LX L turned smoothly and evenly. One E2 had a faster focuser than the others but not too fast. Overall, Nikon focusers have been very consistent from sample to sample, and they all are grease focusers. But even they show occasional variation.
The worst focuser I had was on the Swaro 8x32 LX, which was fast in one direction and stiff and ratchety in the other. Drove me nuts. Terrible flaring problem too, but great ergonomics and super sharp images with vivid colors. The other five Swaros I've tired were similar, some as bad, some a bit better.
The next worse focuser was the Terra ED, which was way tooo fast, not enough tension to make fine adjustments, and I kept overshooting my targets. I tried another Terra sample, and it was the same. I think the focus range is only 3/4 of a turn, seemed more like 1/2 turn to me.
For some binocular users focusers aren't that big a concern, certainly for hunters who "glass" at a distance and hunt in the winter, I can understand why how focusers turn would be less important than that they don't stiffen up in very cold weather.
But for birders, who use their focusers a lot more than hunters, and who chase faster moving targets, I would think focusers would be a big deal. They are for me.
To coin a phrase from Zeiss: Focus on the Experience, Not the Focuser.
Brock
MiddleRiver
Well-known member
As you can see above, there area different opinions on Leica focusers, one saying he's never had a bad one, another implying it's a crap shoot.
I wonder if the Leica's being greaseless focusers plays a factor? As Hocus Focus, who I haven't seen posting on the binoculars forums in a long while, wrote in 2012:
"Leica's greasless focuser seems like a feature better suited for hunters than birders."
Ditto that for Swaros. Most birders don't use their binoculars in well below freezing weather but hunters do. I prefer grease focusers, even though they can get a bit looser in warmer weather and a bit stiffer in colder weather. But most of the time, they turn smoothly. Being a fair-weather birder, grease focusers suits me best.
Zeiss seems to have made a compromise to please both market segments by using greaseless focusers, but making the travel focus short, so you toggle through the entire range quickly, which also enables a very close focus for birders, butterfliers, and buggers. For me, this compromise doesn't work. Zeiss roof focusers turn too fast for my taste, the Zeiss Terra the worst, the Conquest a bit better but still too fast. I've also owned a Zeiss Jena 8x50 Octarem porro, which had a great focuser, but that was a grease focuser.
I've had more binoculars over the years than I could keep count of, but most were Nikons, and out of all the Nikons (6 SEs, 5 E2s, 5 LXs, 3 WFs, 2 EDGs, 2 XL Zooms, 1 Sporter 1, and 1 E), there has not been a lot of variation in the focusers, such that it's not a crap shoot if I will get a good focuser or not.
The only Nikon model that had significant variation was my first 8x32 LX and second pair. The first LX's fast focuser had almost no tension like a Terra ED, the second had just the right amount to control the fast focuser. The 8x42 LX and 10x42 LX and LX L turned smoothly and evenly. One E2 had a faster focuser than the others but not too fast. Overall, Nikon focusers have been very consistent from sample to sample, and they all are grease focusers. But even they show occasional variation.
The worst focuser I had was on the Swaro 8x32 LX, which was fast in one direction and stiff and ratchety in the other. Drove me nuts. Terrible flaring problem too, but great ergonomics and super sharp images with vivid colors. The other five Swaros I've tired were similar, some as bad, some a bit better.
The next worse focuser was the Terra ED, which was way tooo fast, not enough tension to make fine adjustments, and I kept overshooting my targets. I tried another Terra sample, and it was the same. I think the focus range is only 3/4 of a turn, seemed more like 1/2 turn to me.
For some binocular users focusers aren't that big a concern, certainly for hunters who "glass" at a distance and hunt in the winter, I can understand why how focusers turn would be less important than that they don't stiffen up in very cold weather.
But for birders, who use their focusers a lot more than hunters, and who chase faster moving targets, I would think focusers would be a big deal. They are for me.
To coin a phrase from Zeiss: Focus on the Experience, Not the Focuser.
Brock
I bird year round and in winter that often means 20-30F.
The UV focuser seemed 'different' at first, but then became a non-issue.
The Trinovids have superb focusers, as does the NV.
That said I also like the SFL which is the fastest and largest knob (which contributes to speed for me).
I even like the Retro focuser, tho' it is a little slow for close-quarters warbler-combat.
I'm easy I guess
PS One last thought: I'm not sure which of above mentioned focusers is greaseless (other than UV for sure?). None has been a problem in cold (so far). What I DO know from using (and recently refurbishing) old binos, is that grease oxidizes and can get concrete-hard with age. So the development of greaseless mechanism must surely be a benefit to minimizing service returns for focusers that have gotten dry or stiff?
brocknroller
porromaniac
You sure are, you're like the drunk woman sitting alone at the end of the bar at closing time.I bird year round and in winter that often means 20-30F.
The UV focuser seemed 'different' at first, but then became a non-issue.
The Trinovids have superb focusers, as does the NV.
That said I also like the SFL which is the fastest and largest knob (which contributes to speed for me).
I even like the Retro focuser, tho' it is a little slow for close-quarters warbler-combat.
I'm easy I guess
PS One last thought: I'm not sure which of above mentioned focusers is greaseless (other than UV for sure?). None has been a problem in cold (so far). What I DO know from using (and recently refurbishing) old binos, is that grease oxidizes and can get concrete-hard with age. So the development of greaseless mechanism must surely be a benefit to minimizing service returns for focusers that have gotten dry or stiff?
I'm glad to hear that Swaro finally made a good focuser with the NV, although I'll believe it when I feel it. At that price breaking point, it should be as smooth as a baby's bottom, but try an EL or SLC and you might find you're not as easy as you thought, especially if you get a focuser that is particularly hard to turn to the right and is notchy.
It is a crap shoot with Swaro focusers, but since they offer excellent service and honor transferable warranties, you might be able to get them to make the focuser smoother; some have reported they got theirs back fixed, others improved, and others the same as it was when they sent it in.
The 8x32 EL I bought had great optics and great ergonomics, but it had a lousy focuser, and if not for the fact that it also had terrible glare control, I would have kept it and sent it to Swarovski to see if they could improve it. The glare problem was a deign flaw. They couldn't fix that.
I don't think Swaro's dual personality focusers have minimized service returns since from what I've read on the forums and in reviews, Swaro focusers are the main reason they get sent in for repairs. Swaro makes top notch optics, but notchy focusers.
The change in focuser tension in Swaro focusers is due to the difference in pressure between pushing the focusing element down and sucking it out inside the binoculars.
I liked the view through the 10x42 SLC HD even more than the 10x42 EDG, which was my favorite 10x42, but the EDG's focuser was so much better. That SLC HD had one of the better Swaro focusers I've tried, still different tensions in each direction but not as large a difference as others I've tried. I also liked the ergonomics better than the EDG II (though not as much as the open bridge EDG I).
I saw a pair of Swaro 10x42 SLC HDs for sale on Cloudy Night's classifieds, and the seller said it was just serviced by Swarovski for focuser problems. No surprise there. Perhaps the NV's focuser is finally the answer to those like me who want fine optics and a focuser to match that high quality. Too bad they want me to pay over $3,000 for Swaro bins with a focuser they should have designed 20 years ago! I don't think so.
Swarovski is the #1 premium brand with hunters, so I think the greaseless focuser is primarily for hunters not birders who wear Gortex underwear and go birdwatching in 20*F temperatures.
I have not tried the UV HD, but here's what Tobias Meenie said about the focuser on the 8x42 UV HD+, which he was otherwise thrilled about.
Check out the Ultravid if you want outstanding contrast, high perceived brightness and most saturated, brillant colours in a small and beautiful package with perfect mechanics and excellent ergonomy.
What could be improved? I wish the focuser could be as smooth as in the Nikon EDG and the close focus were better. Otherwise, the Ultravid is a mature design.
The SFL's focuser turns from close focus to infinity in 1 1/4 turns like the Conquest, so the only way I'd like it is if the focuser tension was tighter than the Conquest, which from some buyers posted seems to be the case, others not. Could be more sample variations or just the different preferences people have or both.
I'm trying to get in touch with Steve Moore (mooreorless) who was last seen on BF in Nov. 22. Since it's a warmer winter and COVID is not gone but not raging (could be in part to the warm winter), so we could visit a high end optics store he frequents. He's not answering his PMs or emails, and I can't find his phone #. We were going to take a trip to the Lost Creek Shoe Shop since he's retired and has more time. But then the pandemic hit, and our trip was delayed.
Here's a thread Steve started on CN about the store, which is owned by an Amish family. It's a long trip (over 4 hours round trip from me), but the only store I know in the rural PA area where we live that has all the alphas. They have a nice area outside and targets to test bins. I would like to spend the entire day there!
Trip to Lost Creek Shoe Shop - Cloudy Days & Microscopes - Cloudy Nights
Page 1 of 2 - Trip to Lost Creek Shoe Shop - posted in Cloudy Days & Microscopes: Hi All, I finally made a trip to Lost Creek Shoe Shop located 3.9 miles north from exit 35 off of 322, the Mifflintown/McAlisterville Exit located in Central Pennsylvania. This shop is run by Amish folks and they...
Brock
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MiddleRiver
Well-known member
Brock, by NV I meant Noctivid. If that's not the convention, then I've been misleading folks!
And FTR, I don't go home with just anybody. The binos I've mentioned may have their different (focuser) personalities but none is too stiff or sloppy, nor gritty or irregular ;-)
And FTR, I don't go home with just anybody. The binos I've mentioned may have their different (focuser) personalities but none is too stiff or sloppy, nor gritty or irregular ;-)
Conndomat
United States of Europe
The focuser on the EL is also due to the design.
Swarovski uses IMO a spring tension that stretches the spring to infinity and relaxes the different focusing feeling.
I don't mind if you understand the focusing system, you get used to it.
And yes, there are nicer focusers, but the system at Swarovski is not a no-go for me.
Other manufacturers have other problems, as nice as the focuser on the EDG is, the diopter adjustment underneath is IMO a bad design.
Tobias Mennle:
"The focus knob has to be pulled out, the focus unlocks and the diopter knob is accessible. It has perfect friction, +/- 4 diopters are marked, but the knob turns to about 5.5 diopters each direction. I had three issues with the diopter: Firstly, the wheel is only about 6 millimeters wide, so you will not easily handle this with gloves. Secondly, when adjusting the diopter, when I miss the right point and turn the knob back into the other direction, the diopter might drift away, so I set it back to zero, and start the procedure again. Thirdly, in hot weather and moving around a lot with the glass the diopter wheel may slowly wander away from the adjustment."
I had this diopter drift when focusing with two EDG.
It's also the main reason why I wouldn't buy a new EDG anymore, my current 8x32 was repaired, after half a year the same problem.
Andreas
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brocknroller
porromaniac
I know Tobias didn't like the EDG diopter set-up having to pull up the focuser wheel rather than pulling it out and turning the wheel like Swaros. But I didn't know there was an issue with diopter drift with the EDG II like there was with the EDG I, which had no click stops and was very narrow and shallow by comparison with the EDG II's diopter ring. I never had any problems with the focusers or diopters on the 8x42 or 8x32 EDGs as I did on the 10x42 EDG I.
The only issue I've had is the focuser wheel popping off on the 8x42' when I reached in the case to take it out. I either I got lucky with my two samples or you got unlucky. Time will tell.
Here's what Tobias wrote about the Swaro EL focuser in his comparison review with the Zeiss SF. It's the same thing I said; in fact, I even called it "Swarovski's Achilles heel" years back on BF (and quickly got piled on by Swaro fanboys).
The Swarovski Achilles heel often is the focusing wheel. It tends to be rough or uneven going.
And his comment on the SF's focuser:
My SF sample has big play in the focus wheel before it grips the gear, and a too high friction which is a bit weaker in anticlockwise direction. Both got much worse.
It seems that focusers and diopters are difficult for even alpha makers to make right consistently.
Brock
Conndomat
United States of Europe
I'm not saying that the diopter rotates with every EDG, but if you look closely at the construction, it's not entirely unlikely.
The problem is the diopter cannot be fixed and is very close to the focuser. If you exert a little more pressure on the roller, the diopter can rotate as well.
This can cause problems, especially at warmer temperatures when everything becomes "more liquid".
A diopter that is so close to the focuser and cannot be locked is IMO a flawed design.
Andreas
brocknroller
porromaniac
Andreas,
What you described happened with the EDG I because I had to apply pressure to the focuser wheel in order to get it turn, because it was so loose, and the diopter had no click stops, so if I applied too much pressure, the diopter would move. So I had to apply just the right amount of pressure to keep the wheel from falling off but not too much to turn the diopter. Ugh. The EDG I focusers and diopters were such a bad design that I am still surprised that they made it through quality control. Nikon replaced the EDG I bins sent in for repairs for the focuser and/or diopter with the EDG II. They must have lost a mint on those replacements especially since the EDG II cost about $500 more.
But I never had this occur to the 8x42 EDG even in hot weather. The 8x32's focus wheel is tighter than the 8x42's, so it doesn't pop out as easily. It has a bit more stickion than the 8x42's focuser, but not much. The focuser is smaller. Both move buttery smooth, so I never had cause to apply much pressure on either focuser. I will see what happens when we get warmer temperatures since I only got the 8x32 model about a month and a half ago. I'm hoping nothing!
The diopter set up I like the best is the Cabela 8x32 Guide, which has a narrow wheel at the end of the focuser, which you pop out and turn and then push back in. I had a Leupold porro with the same diopter design.
As to me getting used to the Swaro focuser eventually like you, I don't think so. Every time I turned the focusers on every sample I tried, I was acutely aware that I was turning harder in one direction. One sample, a 8.5x EL, was so hard to turn to the right that I had to use two fingers!
But one man's meat is another man's potatoes. For me, Swaro focusers are French Fries without the grease.
Brock
Without looking, I think I've long since answered my own question regarding the magnificent view provided by the range of UVHD+ binoculars. Now having UVHD+ in 8x32, 10x32, and 7x42... yes! They're all fabulous. And that includes the focusers. I give the nod to Zeiss for the focuser quality, but Leica is a very close second. I have no quibbles, whatsoever, with my three pair of UVHD+ binoculars, regarding focusers nor any other aspect. And the image quality is simply stunning on them all.
As for Swaro... their focusers are a real deal killer for me. And their pricing is outrageous. I'm done with them. No thanks. Leica and Zeiss totally satisfy, and my needs are completely fulfilled.
I haven't been present here for quite some time simply because I'm just very happily enjoying my Leica UVHD+ bins, and my Zeiss SFs, and Conquests. I yearn for nothing else! (That's such a nice place to be - NO gear acquisition syndrome.) Happily using them often, and there is little else, than what I have already stated, for me to discuss about binoculars these days. The chase is over for me.
As for Swaro... their focusers are a real deal killer for me. And their pricing is outrageous. I'm done with them. No thanks. Leica and Zeiss totally satisfy, and my needs are completely fulfilled.
I haven't been present here for quite some time simply because I'm just very happily enjoying my Leica UVHD+ bins, and my Zeiss SFs, and Conquests. I yearn for nothing else! (That's such a nice place to be - NO gear acquisition syndrome.) Happily using them often, and there is little else, than what I have already stated, for me to discuss about binoculars these days. The chase is over for me.
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Thotmosis
Well-known member
Enjoy your bins in good health but drop by at birdforum from time to time and post some nice photo’s from your beautiful garden/desert in Arizona!
Paultricounty
Well-known member
Hi Don
Happy new year. Glad to see you back on. I’m with you on the Leica focusers, I have four UVHD’s as well as a half dozen I’ve used over the last year or two , and all had excellent focusers. I do have a different experience with the Swaros, I have four ELs as well, and every one of them are excellent as well, and I’d even say a little smoother than my Leica’s.
Also good to hear your back on the wagon with your GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) which I’ve heard is curable anyway, unlike TDS which we all know has driven people insane, and some say can be fatal 🤣😝✌🏼🙏🏼.
Paul
I am properly jealous of all you guys with perfect Leica focusers, I just could not get my hands on a Leica UV HD+ 7x42 that was acceptable. I gave up the effort. Even if I suspect the 7x42 in particular is a little bit, a tiny bit, less crisp than the Pure NL and SFL I really enjoyed it otherwise: build, view, size etc.
I did come across a flawless 8x32 UV HD+ so I know they exist and I have looked through the UV HD + 8x42 with a focuser I could live with, but there was something with the 7x42 I liked more.
I have been enjoying the SFL 8x40 (and the 12x42NL) so my GAS had vented out the back door so to speak - only to be slightly inflated again by the reveal of the SFL 8x30. Spent a good 20 min with the SFL today and I never get tired of looking through it. Looking at it, it is not as beautiful as the Leicas but we enjoy a pragmatic relationship.
Great glass is like great wine - once you had your fill it is hard to keep still. Or however the proverb goes...
I did come across a flawless 8x32 UV HD+ so I know they exist
and I have looked through the UV HD + 8x42 with a focuser I could live with, but there was something with the 7x42 I liked more. I have been enjoying the SFL 8x40 (and the 12x42NL) so my GAS had vented out the back door so to speak - only to be slightly inflated again by the reveal of the SFL 8x30. Spent a good 20 min with the SFL today and I never get tired of looking through it. Looking at it, it is not as beautiful as the Leicas but we enjoy a pragmatic relationship.
Great glass is like great wine - once you had your fill it is hard to keep still. Or however the proverb goes...
The focuser of my 7x42 UVHD+ seemed unusually stiff when I received it, but after using for about eight months it’s much improved, or I have become used to it. It’s not as light and smooth as the focuser of my 8x32 EL, which isn’t as light and smooth as the focuser of my 8x42 Nikon Premier.
I admire your patience and persistence.
I did not know whether the 7x42 UVHD+ would improve or not and I dared not risk it. That, and the poor focuser was a distraction from day one so even if I had known it would get better after eight months I would not enjoy using it during that period.
After servicing it came back just the same so I felt I would not risk it if it was "within specs" which it clearly was not, as agreed by the Leica rep at the store. I got my full refund but lost a month and a half out of pocket and no binocular so my faith in Leica took a nose dive - but I am not holding a grudge. That was then and this is now. I have had some negatives with all top brands but in the end the reps have all come through.
