BirdLife [Malta] report reveals increased levels of illegal hunting (1 Viewer)

[Gallina]

Amongst other things Gallina, I'm still waiting for you to provide your peer reviewed evidence which disputes the scientific facts on migration that I've provided.

As I offered, do let me know where you'll be shooting when you're in the UK and I'll ensure my police wildlife crime contacts are certain you only visit establishments that are free of illegal activity. Just for the record, one of my contacts is monitoring your posts here with interest especially as he has been involved directly in raptor protection on Malta (which he paid for himself and didn't get a t-shirt). Perhaps you'd like me to ask him for permission to reproduce his observations or do I just assume you'd call him a conspiratorial liar too?

In the meantime I'm sure we're all enjoying your usual laughable lies.

I doubt he's waiting for my permission. If he had anything of substance (more impressive than what Bird life have already reported) you'd have reproduced it already.
Next time I'm in the UK i'll surely tell you where i'm staying. I haven't decided whether its Ireland or Scotland next year but most likely it would be on Islay. I'll keep you posted.
Ooh I just realised what yr implying. Are you saying that there are establishments in the UK that actually cater for illegal activities? Tsk tsk. You should be reporting these if you are aware of any.

 

[Jack Dawe]

Where does this demand leave countries like the UK or Germany?

This has already been answered many times in this thread. There is no need to rehearse it all yet again. Again when backed into a corner you try to deflect attention from the issue at hand that you ought to be addressing.

Hunting in spring cannot be anything other than absolutely unacceptable. Killing pre-breeding adults is the most effective way to engender and accelerate decline in any species.

Yes. Answer this point, Gallina.

I am still waiting, Gallina.

And still I am waiting, Gallina. We are still waiting. By your own admission you have been and, ifd it were legal, would still be happy to shoot in spring. So how do you justify killing birds at a time of year that will inflict the maximum damage on their populations? The truth is, isn't it? that you don't give a flying phuk about the birds. If you did you would be actively campaigning for your compatriots to carry out their hunting in a sustainable manner. But no, your colours are plain for all to see and your attempt to justify your stance is hollow. Until you can demonstrate some real concern for sustainability (preferably by ceasing hunting altogether, but I realise that is too much to expect) your words are just vacuous rhetoric, lacking all credibility. But do keep posting. Every post you make drives the nail ever more firmly into the coffin of Malta's reputation.

 

[Gallina]

Yeah right Galina, you're a little angel and sitting upon paradise on earth, pity the angels wish to be so blind.

Never mind, just continue your unconvincing line ...you're doing a grand job helping to keep your country's reputation exactly where it deserves to be, down in the dirt. Congratulations.

Well at least I haven't run away from it all my life:t:

 

[Jos Stratford]

Well at least I haven't run away from it all my life:t:

That's called having a life

 

[Gallina]

That's called having a life

Good on you, stay out of mine!! xxx8-P

 

[Jos Stratford]

Good on you, stay out of mine!! xxx8-P

Ah, tut tut Gallina, don't say I am annoying you ...and after I offered you a holiday and all :-O

 

[Martin Thomas]

I doubt he's waiting for my permission. If he had anything of substance (more impressive than what Bird life have already reported) you'd have reproduced it already.
Next time I'm in the UK i'll surely tell you where i'm staying. I haven't decided whether its Ireland or Scotland next year but most likely it would be on Islay. I'll keep you posted.
Ooh I just realised what yr implying. Are you saying that there are establishments in the UK that actually cater for illegal activities? Tsk tsk. You should be reporting these if you are aware of any.

The only establishments I know who participate in such illegal activites (for foreign morons like you to come over and murder yet more of our avifauna) include some shooting estates where bird of prey persecution has occurred in order to 'protect' grouse stocks. Let me know your itinery when you're over- if you're really good we could even arrange a raid... sorry I meant a welcoming party!

I'm keeping my powder dry on the fact front for now (which is more than can be said for you). Keep digging bird killer, you're doing a splendid job of digging yourself deeper into a dark lonely hole which appears to be filling up with your own crap.

p.s. You forgot to post the peer reviewed evidence again.

 

[Gallina]

Sorry to dissappoint you Martin, but I only shoot at Woodcock or Pigeon in the UK.

Here, for the third time:
Allow me to point you to your own referees:
http://www.raptormigration.org/agostini_2005.pdf

wherein it quotes Agostini et al and states that: 'In the central Mediterranean region, observations made in Southern Italy and Malta, both during Autumn and Spring migration,showed that VERY FEW buzzards moved in this area'

Allow me also to point you to:
http://www.raptormigration.org/Ring_2005.pdf

wherein Agostini & Panuccio don't even mention the island of Malta. Also one can see the map which clearly indicates the flyways of these birds and shows Malta as way off the flyway.


Ah, tut tut Gallina, don't say I am annoying you ...and after I offered you a holiday and all
On the contrary Joseph, I find your holier than thou posts rather entertaining and of course totally predictable, not to mention full of crap. Let me know if your world travels bring you this way, weather permitting of course, i'll buy you one -B

 

[John Cantelo]

Shall we try, please, to avoid mutual mud slinging however much all sides feel provoked? Not only does it add nothing to the debate, it also becomes a self defeating diversion from the real issues.

On the matter of Spring hunting it is patently clear that it cannot be allowed on ANY grounds. When birds are in sharp decline even a modest cull in Spring threatens the survival of the species. Neither can there be exceptions since once you concede such a vital matter to one group, then another will pop up and demand similar treatment (e.g. the Turtle Dove hunters of SW France).

With regard to the comparative demerits of the UK and Malta with regard to illegal activities in this sphere, as I pointed out many posts ago, it is absurd to compare the raw figures of a nation with 61 Million inhabitants and covering 245,000 sq km to that of a nation with 420,000 inhabitants and covering a mere 316 sq km. Nor can the active and vigorous activities by the UK authorities to tackle this issue be compared to those conducted on Malta,

John

 

[Martin Thomas]

Ever thought of being a politician Gallina? You're pathetic rhetoric, lies and selective answers suits you perfectly to the role.

I think you'll find that quoting a line (taken out of context) which features one species does not constitute a scientific rebuttal of the data I presented. As I keep repeating too, present your own peer reviewed data if you have it (which you don't as it doesn't exist).

I assume you have read this recent letter to the Times of Malta? If so it's not like you not to concoct another conspiracy story.

As for shooting woodcock and pigeon here, the argument remains. You are denying a great number of us the pleasure of seeing these birds due your murderous activities. I assume you get as much pleasure from that as you do from the actual killing?

p.s. Somehow, something tells me you don't eat all you kill when you're in the UK either....

 

[Jos Stratford]

On the contrary Joseph.

Name isn't Joseph, I do actually post under my true name, not an anonymous identity.

 

[Kestrel21]

Gallina seems to have well presented himself to BF by now

Welcome guys .... a taste of malta's pro-hunting lobby....

Gallina, keep honouring my country mate8-P

 

[Nightranger]

Precisely why I declared beforehand that I didn't add weight to my own comment, I quoted it as a matter of interest to those that might be interested, knowing full well that people blinded by wanting to make a point, even at the cost of being unfair will use it in a silly counter argument. Very predictable.
Hollow words? well maybe they sound as hollow as BL's words when they talk about the killing of hundreds and thousands of protected birds and contradict themselves in their own report and talk about 55 to be precise. And nobody questions them. Incredible.
Permanent population roughly 410,000
They go so easily unnoticed because it doesn't happen on the scale that others would have you believe it does.

Fair enough. As John Cantelo says, I will give you credit for not over claiming the points you are making once you have been challenged. However, I do think it is a little disingenuous to make a point in the first place, especially if you only posit for the sake of your position in the argument/debate.

As I have been trying to point out, the figures from BL are doubled on the previous year's returns anyway. As I am sure you recognise, data of this kind is never absolute and given there is a good chance evidence is being hidden due to it being illegal, you have to admit that a proportion where the figure doubles over one year is more than a little worrying. I am not really sure why you think 55 should be questioned given that the low number is evidence (to you) that the problem is not as widespread as BL claim. Surely you are not claiming that BL are inflating the figures when in all probability the figures are a considerable under-estimate? Indeed, your final sentence seems to contradict the other points you are making inthis post.

 

[Nightranger]

I did Martin. Lemme do it again, here:
Allow me to point you to your own referees:
http://www.raptormigration.org/agostini_2005.pdf

wherein it quotes Agostini et al and states that: 'In the central Mediterranean region, observations made in Southern Italy and Malta, both during Autumn and Spring migration,showed that VERY FEW buzzards moved in this area'

no understanding of how the scientific community operates if you believe it is funded by organisations with ulterior motives.
No no wrong again. It is not the scientific community that is funded by organisations with ulterior motives but the organisations with ulterior motives(BL and CABS) that are syphoning cash off the EU.

You cannot be serious with this one and I do feel you are being a little disrespectful to the BF community here. To quote the facts and data for one species to make a point against the case for all raptors is not only bad science on a par with Creationists, it is downright disrespectful to your audience. Martin has kindly provided so many references that I would recommend that you go away and read the papers. By all means come back with your own critique if you wish but it is not clever to wait for someone to pull out a piece of data that suits your argument and then promote this at the same time as ignoring counter evidence.

Erm! Your closing comment is more than a little unfair given that BL and CABS are working hard to uphold the EU birds directive and to see it adhered to across all of Europe. If anything, I thinks both deserve more cash to have any chance of achieving their goals and believe me, I only have the most tenuous of links with both organisations so I am speaking from the position of an aligned neutral.

 

[Gallina]

p.s. Somehow, something tells me you don't eat all you kill when you're in the UK either....
No, not all when I'm in the UK. I have it all vacuum packed and brought over with me to Malta. All with the necessary permits. The customs vet is notified, and will be waiting for me to arrive for an inspection of the imported quarry. Virtually every hunter that I know that travels does the same thing

Shall we try, please, to avoid mutual mud slinging however much all sides feel provoked? Not only does it add nothing to the debate, it also becomes a self defeating diversion from the real issues.
John you are absolutely right and this is at the back of my mind each time i'm forced to rebutt any rude or childish comments. It isn't easy though to ignore the provocations

On the matter of Spring hunting it is patently clear that it cannot be allowed on ANY grounds. When birds are in sharp decline even a modest cull in Spring threatens the survival of the species. Neither can there be exceptions since once you concede such a vital matter to one group, then another will pop up and demand similar treatment (e.g. the Turtle Dove hunters of SW France).
There is a difference John as I explained in my earlier posts. The SW France evidently do not have any grounds for expecting to shoot in Spring. Contrary to what you might believe there can be concessions. As I said the matter is now out of our hands and it is up to the EU courts to decide the future of spring hunting in Malta based upon pre accession promises, EU fact finding missions, and reports presented by both BLM and our hunting federations.

With regard to the comparative demerits of the UK and Malta with regard to illegal activities in this sphere, as I pointed out many posts ago, it is absurd to compare the raw figures of a nation with 61 Million inhabitants and covering 245,000 sq km to that of a nation with 420,000 inhabitants and covering a mere 316 sq km. Nor can the active and vigorous activities by the UK authorities to tackle this issue be compared to those conducted on Malta,
On the contrary, one must compare raw figures because whether 100 protected birds are shot over Malta or over the UK or over international waters it is still 100 dead protected birds. I'm not trying to make an argument of who has the worse record but merely stating that fingers are being pointed in this direction (without knowing the truth about what is actually happening) whilst trying to make it seem that what is happening in the UK is 'under control' just because your country has a percieved history of conservation. This argument has evolved from other arguments wherein I insisted that it is wrong to condemn Malta when worse is happening in the UK.
Irrespective, I still maintain that this has nothing to do with the main topic under discussion.
Does Malta have a poaching problem? YES
Is it as bad as painted by BLM and/or CABS? NO
Are the authorities doing what they can to stamp out this abuse? IMHO not as much as they could, I believe that they should employ more resources in the field and should put in better planned swoops on hot spots rather than firefighting. I also believe that the judiciary play a very important part in all of this because only when we see maximum penalties dished out will we see a noticeable decline in this sort of illegal activity.
Can the hunter play a part in eradicating the abuse?
Yes, the hunter surely plays an important role in all this since he is out in the field every day and could alert police to any illegality.
Our federation also has an important role in educating members and monitoring of all hunting activity. The unfortunate thing is that the EU is using two weights and two measures even in the case of financial aid for educational campaigns.Whilst it is funding BLM to the tune of €175k for a communications and awareness projecting concerning the banning of trapping on Malta (when this is already a fait accompli, so in short why use the money?) it has flatly refused an application from the same Life+ EU programme to our federation for an education campaign.
Again, I ask you to give the country a chance in stamping out this problem.
We have always overcome the most challenging and daunting hurdles and I am confident that the one we presently face will be dealt with authoritatively in the not too distant future. We are presently going through major overhauls in every sector, the environmental one being the largest and most important. We continue to survive and grow in the face of all the global challenges and bravely ride the financial waves that are hitting our shores. Our country aims to become, by the year 2015, a global centre of excellence in ICT, financial services, higher education, health and the manufacturing industry. This cannot be done without sorting out, amongst others, our internal environmental issues and these are being ironed out in our progression towards achieving these aims. We are not a backward nation made up of troglodytes and cavemen hell-bent on destroying everything but rather a progressive and forward looking country that realises that we must find that fine balance that will protect ALL citizens rights, including birdwatchers and hunters. That there are a few that insist on breaking laws is true but I remain confident that we will soon see active measures being taken against these bad apples like we have in many other areas.
This really is my final post here for obvious reasons. Please believe that I never came here in an attempt to convert, i'd be mad to think I could, but I simply ask you to open your eyes and don't take all you hear at face value. I really do hope that one day both sides could find some common ground. The truth is that neither of us is going to vanish from the face of this earth so the sooner we learn to live with each other the better.

 

[Gallina]

http://www.parliament.gov.mt/information/Papers/6509.pdf

John, this could interest you. The English bit of course. It is a letter written last year by then Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon. Michael Frendo, to the President of the European Comission, H.E. JM Barroso. Therein, Martin can also find the references he was so desperately after under note 1.

 

[Martin Thomas]

<snip>
This really is my final post here for obvious reasons. <snip>

You can't even tell the truth about leaving! This is the second time you've said it but in an effort to humour you I'll respond despite feeling embarrassed for you Gallina.

Your attempt to use the citations from the letter as a response to my presented evidence is surely a joke. Apart from being very dated papers (only seminal papers are generally regarded as robust when more then 20 years old) I will wager any money you like that haven't read either of the papers as they aren't available to people without institutional access or by rather expensive subscription. The other two are books which are neither peer reviewed or even in print as far as I can establish but neither have ever been cited in a peer reviewed journal as providing evidence of the insignificance of Malta in terms of raptor migration.

Moreau (1953) even stresses in his abstract that "The enormous proportion of migrants that must pass undetected is stressed both on statistical grounds and on certain features of the records." He does however note that "movements of Quail and Turtle Doves are of special interest.". This paper in now way refutes the (later) evidence of significant and large numbers of raptors passing over Malta. His 1961 paper is concerned mostly with passerines and again says nothing to suggest migration of raptors is in any way insignificant over Malta.

Bear in mind too that thanks to worldwide persecution of raptors (helped admirably by your illegal gun-toting friends) the global conservation status of many species is now dramatically worse than when any of these publications were published. Irrespective of this I'll reiterate that it is not the global status which matters when we are talking about the killing that occurs on Malta. It is the impact on geographically endangered populations (e.g English hen harriers) that counts.

It has become very clear from your answers that you have no understanding of basic ecological concepts so please stop trying to convince us of your expertise as it simply falls flat on its face and makes you look extremely stupid.

To be honest I'd have far more respect for you if you had simply come to this forum and owned up to your pro-shooting stance from the outset and said you simply back the campaign to stamp out illegal hunting. Instead you have at best been misinformed, or worse attempted to use conspiracy theories to make absurd claims. Your evidence simply does not stand up to scrutiny but you cannot say the same of mine.

I don't approve of 'sport' killing of animals any kind as it's barbaric and cruel to say the least. I can and do respect the rights of individuals to legally practice their hobbies but have only contempt for anyone who believes they have a gun-given right to deny me of mine by killing wild birds at any point in the 'season' in the name of the one thing it's not - 'sport'.

You've graciously accepted that you will convince no one here of your stance and it seems the same applies in you failing to accept the truth from us. At least we agree that Malta and other nations (including the UK) must take action to stop the senseless illegal persecution of living things at all levels if we are to stem the losses of the world's rapidly declining biodiversity.

I look forward to not hearing from you again.

 

[Nightranger]

Just leafing through the threads here I can talk about far more incidents in the UK alone namely:
the mass swan grave uncovered last year
the 7 cygnets shot in L/pool
the 135 buzzards killed in Shropshire
The peregrine found shot in quarry
The peregrine trapped in Kingswinford in the W Midlands
Red kite shot in the Wolds
Axe gang that tried to chop a tree to steal buzzard chicks in Knowsley Village
The fact that in Scotland it is now legal to take Seagulls
The 6 buzzards poisoned near Greenlow in Berwickshire
The 2 kites found poisoned near Otley in W Yorkshire

Blimey Gallina, you are not a Creationist too, are you? If someone wants an interesting few minutes or so going over this list and tracing the source it would be good to know how many have more information than is presented here. Given that Gallina's intention is to paint a picture that there are far more incidents in the UK than there are in Malta (ignoring the significant population vs proportion effect for a moment), it would have been more honest to point out how many of the items in the list were actually reports of prosecutions. Indeed, it is clear that at least one item as presented is just such a case.

Secondly, Gallina is blissfully ignorant of UK wildlife law as three species of gull are covered by General License conditions and this does not preclude any gulls or eggs that are legally controlled being used for food. There was a case with a West Country restaurant doing the same with rooks even though technically speaking the birds should not be specifically taken for the sole purpose of producing a food resource. Note: Of course, it would be difficult to prove this definitively but the General License is much stricter than some people realise in that listed birds can only be controlled under a set number of conditions.

I also happen to know people involved in the 'swan grave' incident and it was a police failure that led to the case being thrown out on what is euphemistically called a technicality (the main item of evidence was lost...hmm!). Nevertheless, the perpetrators were identified so this example hardly compares with the sheer lack of prosecutions in Malta.

 

[John Cantelo]

I appreciate Gallina refuses to acknowledge the importance of a statistical analysis rather than ‘cherry picking’ raw fugures. So let’s try two other approaches:-

i) From the ten cases he quotes it seems to me highly likely that in 60-70% of the instances those responsible were connected with the hunting fraternity (a very small subset of the total UK population). Hence his figures prove nothing other than that some of those involved in hunting have a much higher tendency towards criminality than the population as a whole.

ii) If this is going to be a proper balanced look at the situation in the UK we ought to consider the positives, particularly with regard to the sort of prominent, large species that are often illegally targeting in Malta:-
White-tailed Eagle - successful reintroduction - 28 pairs (2005) – now part of the Scottish tourist industry
Marsh Harrier – massive increase in UK to 400+ ‘pairs’ from 1 pair in1971
Buzzard – massive increase leading to the re-colonisation of eastern England
Osprey – re-colonised Scotland in 1958 – now 180+ pairs; now breeding in England & Wales (for the first time in c500 years)
Red Kite – hugely successful re-introduction campaign 900-970 pairs (supplementing a very small Welsh population)
Peregrine – increased to c900 pairs
Little Egret – 450+ pairs from only 1 pair in 1996
Common Crane – 5-7 pairs following natural re-colonisation 1981

How might the widespread reports of illegal persecution on Malta be balanced by initiatives leading to an increase in the number and diversity of that island's birdlife?
Just an idle thought ....
John

 

[Jack Dawe]

How might the widespread reports of illegal persecution on Malta be balanced by initiatives leading to an increase in the number and diversity of that island's birdlife?

Well, it's no good asking Gallina and his ilk. They have no interest at all in increasing the number and diversity of birds. The only thing they are interested in is blasting them from the skies. Doubtless they think the supply is inexhaustible.