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Birdwatching "not environmentally friendly" (1 Viewer)

James Blake

chasing the shadow of a lowskimming gull
the planet can only sustain 1 billion, not 7 or 10.

Hi Kristoffer

I'm not an expert on this either - but a brief web search suggests that there is absolutely no consensus on this. I'd be interested to know which source you've used for this figure, and why you consider it more authoritative than other estimates (which are mostly higher, sometimes by many orders of magnitude, though a few are as low as 0.5 billion).

Apart from anything else, the planet's carrying capacity surely depends on our lifestyle - some societies consume hugely more food, water, energy etc. than others.

cheers
James
 

Matt Prince

Sharkbait
We'll know what the upper population limit is - when we hit a malthusian catastrophe.

By then the environment will have gone to hell in a handbasket.

So I intend to see as much as possible whilst there is something left to see!
 

Argon55

Active member
Visit the Ruwenzori for one simple example; or ask yourself why landowners down the length of the Zambezi Valley came together to convert their extensive agricultural lands into vast reserves of one sort or another - wealthy incoming tourists played a larger role than a simple desire to see wild animals grazing by the river.

The Ruwenzori is a very fragile environment and the WWF already view any further tourist development to see the mountain gorillas as a major threat. And the tourist numbers who go there now are tiny….so very little scope for any development.

The landowners presumably did it to make money for themselves. I don’t think that money is necessarily going to filter down to the poorer people who need it most. I always understood the scheme was instigated under the aegis of the AWF (and sponsored by Caterpillar Inc) in order to conserve in its own right and provide sustainable livings for the many people who live along the river. This scheme does not depend on tourism.


I did not, and would not, say 'unequivocally'. What is, however, a far greater myth is that banning flights will save the World - that is simply cobblers.

See below



Sometimes ...to some extent! I can only recommend you get on a plane and see more of the World!


OK enough already. This isn’t a specifically CO2 issue but it deserves more detail since you’ve raised it. I think you are extremely naïve and your experience of visiting these reserves is superficial otherwise you’d be a little more thoughtful about it. There are undoubtedly a number of well-meaning individuals (probably including yourself) who believe that ecotourism is sustainable and good for the local economies. On the face of it, things can look good. But I’ve spend my career (as a scientist) finding out that things rarely look as they seem.

Ecotourism channels resources away from other projects that could contribute more sustainable and realistic solutions to pressing social and environmental problems. Many argue repeatedly that eco-tourism is neither ecologically nor socially beneficial, yet it persists as a strategy for conservation and development. What has been often overlooked is the fact that eco-tourism is a highly consumer-centred activity, mostly catering to the "alternative lifestyles" of the new middle classes of urbanised societies. Without challenging the development process itself, "pristine environment", plant and animal species are primarily seen as commodities for tourist consumption, while significant social and political issues such as the maldistribution of resources, and inequalities in political representation and power are marginalised or ignored.

These studies provide strong evidence for the abandonment of ecotourism due to the malign influences it exerts over land usage and negative impacts on indigenous people. There are many instances of displacement of peoples and gross violations of human rights. There are many instances of conflicts caused over control of resources and profit

Even modest numbers of people cause pressures on local food and water supplies and the local people suffer these, not the tourists. In Africa, rivers have been polluted as a result of sewage run-off from tourist parties. The Maasai Mara National Park in Kenya and the Ngorongoro Conservation Area in Tanzania are both excellent examples of an ecological disaster arising from tourism. In both areas, lodges and camps have heavily deforested the small riverine forests that existed here with their hunger for firewood for cooking and heating. The Maasai themselves have also been displaced. Tourists also think that walking around and taking photographs is harmless but there are many instances of tourists wearing paths and causing soil erosion. There is also good evidence that nature observation drives some animals off reserves (e.g. Cheetahs in Africa). These negative factors greatly outweigh the short to medium term economic factors




Exactly what I said - your point is only about CO2 emissions, one issue.


Carbon. Or specifically atmospheric CO2, yes, that is the be all and end all. The IPCC estimate that we need to get back to 60% of 1992 CO2 levels. At the moment they estimate we are 165% above 1992 levels. So that’s a drop to 40% of current! That’s huge and the only way we’ll achieve it is massive savings across the board, including non-essential flights of all kinds. Now your point seems to be that flying to national parks causes reduced CO2 concentration overall as a result of tourism, emissions being balanced by carbon sinks created as a result. This is only be true if the existence of national parks depended on ecotourism itself. This is manifestly not true. Countries are and have created these parks in and of their own right because they recognise the importance of conservation. In its own right. Many existed before ecotourism started. Since this is the case, CO2 emissions through visiting them are completely unnecessary, excessive and undermine your argument. I’m not sure you’ll have done the calculations already but based on IPCC and EIA estimates, one hectare of forest can support one tourist for one year (a forest absorbs approx 1.8t CO2/ha/y. A tourist travelling a 10,000km round trip also emits approx 1.8t CO2 in fuel). But as I said, most reserves exist independent of tourists. They are also created from existing environments (I’m not aware of any that have been created from degraded land as a result of ecotourism pressure……indeed it is very difficult to recreate rainforest from reclaimed land) again undermining your argument. Your argument would be far more credible if ecotourism created completely new forests which weren’t there in the first place.

Incidentally, I'd be interested to learn where you are coming from. Do you have any personal interest in the bird or eco-tourism industry?
 

Matt Prince

Sharkbait
"Carbon. Or specifically atmospheric CO2, yes, that is the be all and end all."

Erm no. From an ecological point of view - habitat is the be all and end all. I agree with Jos, I don't care to be around if the scientists "save the world" by replacing all virgin forest with some genetically modified mutant C02 sink crop..

Flights are but one part of our overall footprint, population has to come down.. If not by policy, sooner or later, mother nature is going to put the boot in.
 

birdboybowley

Well-known member.....apparently so ;)
Supporter
England
Population control would be excellent - I've got 5 siblings, so 5 other bdays to buy for and Xmas too.... it's bloody expensive! ;)
 

deborah4

Well-known member
Interesting comments Argon. You may be interested (since it seems topical at present) to know that habitat fragmentation caused by road building, including that for 'eco' tourism for the Giant Panda in China is now recognised as as yet another conservation 'threat' following research by Beijing University. I assume once all these 'eco' tourists have flown to their destination most of them will want a few roads to travel on in their hired cars?!
http://www.wwfchina.org/english/downloads/Panda/01-1en.PDF

This is an interesting read and seems to provide a fairly balanced view on tourism and it's impacts in relation to Asia - perhaps stressing the need for proper management of 'natural' habitats whilst developing strategies that aim for economically sustainable local communties

http://www.fao.org/docrep/w7714e/w7714e09.htm

Ironically, because eco-tourism is still a 'drop in the ocean' negative impacts seem comparatively small cf. to mainstream tourism. However, the potential risk for undermining the object of 'eco' tourism in the first place (ie. protecting habitats/species etc) may well increase along with it's popularity and development of infrastructure to support the increase of tourists!

Some 'negative impacts' of ''ecotourism'' in Costa Rica and the Maasai Mara - a bit of an eye opener for me now Argon has highlighted the rather many thorns among the 'rose garden'!

http://www.islandandresort.com/our-...-ecotourism-direct-environmental-impacts.html

http://www.islandandresort.com/our-...51-ecotourism-negative-impact-of-toursim.html
 
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Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
The irony of it all is that the people who point out all the wasteful CO2 emissions from traveling all over the world to bird are emitting CO2 in the process of complaining via an electronic medium.

as a human being, the very act of anyone being alive produces a negative environmental impact.
 

jc122463

Well-known member
I think it's obvious from this thread that there are many different ways of viewing environmental sustainability. CO2 emissions are definitely a large problem. However, there are other problems as well. I guess the main point for me is coming up with a pragmatic solution to the obvious problem of environmental degradation. I'm not looking at carbon cancellation from plane flights vs. forest preservation. What I am looking at is ways to at least try and make current society more sustainable. Sure, if everyone lived on a small plot of land, producing their own food, clothing, etc., we could reach absolute sustainability. However, the likelihood of this happening is so close to zero that it's really not worth mentioning. Once again, pragmatic solutions are necessary.
I agree with comments made about the Masai Mara etc. and the effects that tourism can have on both local environments and populations (I actually just finished a hopefully soon-to-be-published paper about sustainability within the Mara). Obviously there are a lot of negative effects. It's also true that even minor trail disturbances can have huge effects on soil and plant growth. These are issues that need to be addressed within the study of tourism, and eco-tourism in particular. The answer is not that eco-tourism/tourism should be completely ignored or viewed as wrong. Again, pragmatic solutions are needed.

Cheers,
Benji

EDIT - If what I've said makes no sense, I blame it on an excellent Sukkot celebration and ceremonial drinks provided.
 
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Jos Stratford

Beast from the East
The Ruwenzori is a very fragile environment and the WWF already view any further tourist development to see the mountain gorillas as a major threat. And the tourist numbers who go there now are tiny….so very little scope for any development.


Spent much time in the area? Yes, tourist numbers are relatively low, but income is large - a single person visiting the to see the Gorillas, for example, pays US $ 600 merely to join a trek to try to see the Gorillas, more for an additional treks, more more accommodation, etc.

This money does trickle down to the poorest members of the local community, the village's health clinic for example was paid for by a portion of entrance fees, local persons are employed as forest guards and guides, yet more in services such as accommodation, etc. The local community views the forest as a resource to be protected, not logged or destroyed as was the case not so very long.

If you want to view the real threats that Mountain Gorillas face, yes refer to the WWF for their assessment - click here and note tourism is not listed under the major threats that are listed. Further note that all the threats mentioned are occurring in Congo and, when the situation was less stable, in Rwanda - where, for obvious reasons, there are no tourists visiting. The increase in Gorilla numbers has almost entirely been in Uganda, where the project benefits from controlled tourism. With a marked improvement in security in Ruwanda, the Gorillas there are now also beginning to benefit as the areas are now also seen as an important resource and tourists are beginning to visit, thereby help the local communities and the greater environment.

Also note the WWF actively supports tourism projects, recognising the importance of this in the long-term protection of these crucial forests and populations of Mountain Gorillas, and of course all associated wildlife. For details see here and specificaly note "An important aspect of IGCP’s work is to strengthen links with the local communities who live alongside mountain gorillas and to develop sustainable tourism based on viewing the gorillas. The success of these conservation measures was revealed by a recent survey which found that mountain gorilla numbers in the Virunga Mountains have increased by 17% over the past 14 years, to 380".

Kill off tourism, kiss goodbye to the long-term survival of these forests.



The landowners presumably did it to make money for themselves. I don’t think that money is necessarily going to filter down to the poorer people who need it most. I always understood the scheme was instigated under the aegis of the AWF (and sponsored by Caterpillar Inc) in order to conserve in its own right and provide sustainable livings for the many people who live along the river. This scheme does not depend on tourism.

Now we are talking about the many landowners across Southern Africa who have converted their extensive lands into well-protected wildlife reserves. Yes, one of the primary reasons was clearly to make money for themselves, so what? The populations of rhino, the game- and bird-rich tens of thousands of hectares don't give a toss whether the land owner is a capitaist or whether they did it out of a passionate desire to protect for the sake of protection, the result is the same, land being actively protected and enhanced from an environmental angle.

And as for 'this scheme does not depend on tourism', erm yes the majority of the reserves set aside for conservation do. Many are luxury high-end concerns, wealthy clients paying exceptionally large sums to visit the wildernesses, others are private hunting reserves, the even wealthier clients paying even larger fees to hunt (whilst the idea of inviting tourists to shoot may be distasteful to some, the reality is it is controlled and still the environment is the benefactor, if compared to what came before).

And, at a wider scale, if the great national parks of Kenya, of South Africa, of Costa Rica, of etc, etc, did not attract tourists, did not generate vast sums of hard currency, how long do you believe it would be before the governments came under immense pressures to allow other exploitation of the lands, bit by bit or wholesale.



Incidentally, I'd be interested to learn where you are coming from. Do you have any personal interest in the bird or eco-tourism industry?

My only interest in the bird- and eco-tourism industries is as a tourist who willingly plays a part in supporting local initiatives, a total of over three years in Africa so far, endless months scattered across most of the other corners of the world.

At the end of the day, I will not criticise someone who feels they should not fly, that is a personal decision which is up to them. I will however counter an argument by someone who comes on a wildlife forum and tries to paint flying as an evil to be stamped out. Persons on this forum, by the very nature of their interests, are generally the very ones that are doing the most benefit when they fly abroad. Long may they continue to do so.
 
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kristoffer

Used Register
Hi,
sorry for the slow response. I have been busy all week. I certainly did not make up this number if that is what you think ;) I have read several courses of human ecology at the university and one the teacher was the famous, in Sweden atleast, Stig-Olof Holm. In the anthology "Hela världen" ("The whole world" is the title translated) chapter 2, is the issue about human impact and overpopulation discussed. With a Western lifestyle, the world can only sustain approx. 1 billion humans. Over that we start to live over the interest and take more then the world can recover. Obviously one can discuss what Holm uses as reference country or number but regardless you will come up with a number slightly below or over 1 billion, not 4 or 8 billion. So, we are too many if we want live like in EU or USA.



Hi Kristoffer

I'm not an expert on this either - but a brief web search suggests that there is absolutely no consensus on this. I'd be interested to know which source you've used for this figure, and why you consider it more authoritative than other estimates (which are mostly higher, sometimes by many orders of magnitude, though a few are as low as 0.5 billion).

Apart from anything else, the planet's carrying capacity surely depends on our lifestyle - some societies consume hugely more food, water, energy etc. than others.

cheers
James


And? Get rid of the Jews? The Muslims? the Blacks? The Poor? What?


This is just silly of you, and actually a bit rude. This is pure statistics. Too many people = too high pressure on the environment. The only realistic way to lower the number of people is to employ restrictions on number of children's allowed.
 
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Jos Stratford

Beast from the East
I think you are extremely naïve and your experience of visiting these reserves is superficial otherwise you’d be a little more thoughtful about it.

There are undoubtedly a number of well-meaning individuals (probably including yourself) who believe ...

You are welcome to your opinion, that is your right. I, however, naturally would question who is the more naïve in this respect, you seem to believe all the poorer countries in the World will be in the same position as a few rich nations and thus have the luxury of resources to sit back and continue to actively protect the national parks and environment regardless of local pressures by populations that are actually more interested in surviving than gazing upon the beauties of nature.


...your experience of visiting these reserves is superficial ...

:-O :-O :-O

For your information, some of the localities that you quote, I have spent months visiting, along with extensive trips throughout many parts of Africa, Asia, Central America, etc. Usually as a tourist, but also some involved in conservation projects, eg in Okavango, etc.





The Maasai Mara National Park in Kenya and the Ngorongoro Conservation Area in Tanzania are both excellent examples of an ecological disaster arising from tourism...


They are far from ecological disasters.

Again, I ask how you imagine the governments of these nations could (a) fund the protection of these reserves and (b) justify to their populations the need to protect them in the face of growing pressures. With no tourism, illegal grazing, poaching and cutting of firewood would increase in virtually all reserves - this is appicable equally to numerous reserves in numerous countries.

Tourism needs to be managed, tourism needs to be controlled. However, tourism is also part of the answer ...and virtually all conservationists in the field, including the WWF, agree with that.



Now your point seems to be that flying to national parks causes reduced CO2 concentration overall as a result of tourism.

Please find where I said this.



(National Parks/reserves) They are also created from existing environments (I’m not aware of any that have been created from degraded land as a result of ecotourism pressure) again undermining your argument.

a. there are many examples of degraded land being turned into reserves, then actively enhanced, many by commercial long-term ventures to encourage tourism and/or that rely on tourism to fund the work.

b. there are even more examples of crtically important environments that owe their long-term survival to or partly to the revenues generated by toruism.
 
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Johnny Allan

Dip or Glory
Carbon footprints and co2 emissions etc are red herrings. People talk endlessly about global warming and climate change when the real threat to the planets wildlife and environment is uncontrolled, unabating and unsustainable population growth. Even if climate change was only partly or even not caused by man, the effects of it will, at least, be exacerbated by unabating population growth.

Every time I see a new wildlife programme, for example the latest one on Papua New Guinea, the programme invariably mentions man's destruction of habitat and wildlife. Papua New Guinea is no different and logging is now taking place, twenty miles from where new animal species are just being found. The recent wildlife programme "South Pacific" ended with large international fishing fleets hoovering up the ocean. This is mankind in action, not climate change.

I'd be happy if governments, wildlife and other conservation bodies spent one tenth of the time they spend on climate change, realising that uncontrolled, unabating and unsustainable population growth will destroy the world's wildlife and environment.

However, I suppose there's not much political mileage in suggesting that we have smaller families whereas they can tax us on carbon emissions etc and pretend to be green. In the meantime, we are documenting the destruction of our wildlife and environment.

The best we can do is preserve what we have for as long as we can. We are lucky enough to live at the best time in history to be able to witness first hand the wonders of wildlife and nature. Future generations wont have this opportunity.

Johnny Allan

ps talking of habitat destruction, at my local birding patch which is Beddington Farmlands, what should be wet grassland for a nature reserve, is under a "temporary" re-cycling plant which they are trying to make permanent. Vested interests are trying to grab more Metropolitan Open Land from this designated Metropolitan Site of Importance for Nature Conservation for waste disposal. Bigger population, more waste.

If anyone would like to help in our fight against this and to establish a major urban nature reserve, go to:

http://beddingtonfarmlands.org.uk/

And click on "South London Waste Plan"

Mant thanks
 
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Johnny Allan

Dip or Glory
Perhaps someone can answer this:

In which decade did man made emissions start to cause climate change ?

In which decade will we get back to the level of man made emissions that wont cause climate change ?
 

colonelboris

Right way up again
And? Get rid of the Jews? The Muslims? the Blacks? The Poor? What?

Twonk. Population control doesn't mean going round dispatching people - it means trying to lower the birth rate. A fairly standard response when people don't want the subject discussed is to equate it with ethnic cleansing - seen that in a few other fora...
 
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James Blake

chasing the shadow of a lowskimming gull
Hi,
sorry for the slow response. I have been busy all week. I certainly did not make up this number if that is what you think ;) I have read several courses of human ecology at the university and one the teacher was the famous, in Sweden atleast, Stig-Olof Holm. In the anthology "Hela världen" ("The whole world" is the title translated) chapter 2, is the issue about human impact and overpopulation discussed. With a Western lifestyle, the world can only sustain approx. 1 billion humans. Over that we start to live over the interest and take more then the world can recover. Obviously one can discuss what Holm uses as reference country or number but regardless you will come up with a number slightly below or over 1 billion, not 4 or 8 billion. So, we are too many if we want live like in EU or USA.

Hi again and thanks for that.

Holm may be eminent in his field, but I'm sure for many reasons you'd find other equally eminent figures who'd disagree with him (because experts usually disagree...top climatologists' near-consensus on the causes of, and danger of, global warming is an interesting exception).

The number of people the world can support obviously depends on lifestyle. The number of people the world can support if we all iived a western lifestyle is obviously going to be low; living a mix of lifestyles, much higher. Pretty much all the world may aspire to a western lifestyle - but that's realistically never going to happen.

I agree our current western lifestyle seems to be ecologically disastrous. I'd say the big question is:how can be move towards a lifestyle which combines the best features of modern European life (e.g. our healthcare, housing, social security, access to information) while remaining sustainable? And how many people could the world support living that lifestyle?

best wishes
James
 

James Blake

chasing the shadow of a lowskimming gull
As for ecotourism - wouldn't it be great if the poorer countries could find more ways of making money out of national parks that didn't involve people flying to visit them?

For instance, there is a huge appetite in the west for films, TV programmes, photos, websites, books about the worlds' wilderness places - and yet at present it's western companies that are making much of the money from these. I think it would be great to see non-western countries producing more of this content themselves and selling it to the west.

James
 

TheSeagull

Well-known member
I don't personally think that eco-tourism is a bad thing, I've never went abroad but I think that the benefits for the local communities provide an incentive to stop them expanding etc. I do think that we should look at the wider picture instead of just cutting CO2 emissions, personally I think we should look at the wider picture. Stopping deforestation would, I think, be a much more effective combatant against climate change than cutting CO2. I think we should do both. And we should implement a one or two child limit, as it is the growing human population that makes both previous activities necessary in the first place.
 

Vectis Birder

Itchy feet
Twonk. Population control doesn't mean going round dispatching people - it means trying to lower the birth rate. A fairly standard response when people don't want the subject discussed is to equate it with ethnic cleansing - seen that in a few other fora...

Agreed. Liverpool_bob, your response is plain stupid. Population control applies to everyone equally, regardless of race, colour, nationality or religion.

I have said, on other fora and online newspaper comment pages, that the human population is too high and cutting the birth rate is essential for the survival of not just our own species, but other species as well, and the hard of thinking - usually parents - have come out with the highly insulting and very unintelligent response of 'Well, if you're so concerned, then kill yourself'. They can only equate 'population control' with killing, not with prevention.

When there was a climate protest at Heathrow a while back, a news item featured the protesters, some of whom had 2, 3 or 4 children in tow. If they are so damn concerned about the environment, then why did they breed?
 

E.T.

Well-known member
Have you read "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre? ... this strikes me of being a bit more of the same.

I notice the Times is including a Science supplement on Thursday's...remind me not to buy that will you.


PS I'm referring to the birding bit being ungreen, as being Bad Science...not the konder-ver-sashun about birth control/ethnic annialation (depending on your viewpoint)
 
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