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Blue-winged Teal...shot... (1 Viewer)

Adam W

Well-known member
Sorry to disappoint you, if you read my post again you will see it doesn't read 'here's a video of ducks being blasted out of the sky'.

I edited out the worse bits as it was a video of a GND, not hunters killing released birds fed on potatoes.

The duck shoot takes place every Tuesday at Clifford Hill Gravel Pits near Northampton if you want to witness it yourself.



Sorry my mistake.

There's been alot of debate in this thread about the sustainability of hunting,well thats not a problem if birds are being reared and released for shooting(some of which will survive and add to the wild population)and the food being provided will not just benifit the released birds but many wild birds also.
 

Cortonbirds

Well-known member
So....do we rely on hunters to protect and purchase sites for their own "bloodlust" and "sport"?....
or do we wake up, invest more resources into conservation to buy internationally imporatant sites to PRESERVE nature (not KILL it).
The world is a strange place for sure...
"Whats hit is history, whats missed is a mystery"....praise the old gunmen for bagging us our first Pallas` Warbler etc...but o wait...our morals surfaced and we all realised this was wrong and got rid of it....comprende...?
Call me a MORON again..whatever you want..im controversial..sure....but I retain the higher ground..
BTW you wanna test your aim..? Clay Pigeons go go...
 

Cortonbirds

Well-known member
Another thing...we presumably all abhor the decimation of our own Turtle Dove population by Meditteranean shooters...is there really any difference in any forms of wild bird shooting..? I dont really care about domesticated food sources and ill eat my McNuggets with glee...BUT I do CARE DEEPLY about WILD populations in nature and do we have a right to continue to decimate these?
 

Farnboro John

Well-known member
Thats incorrect Brent are not legal quarry and havent been since the 1981 wildlife act when all quarry lists were changed.

Blue winged teal may not be on the quarry list but neither are they mentioned as protected anywhere as they are not supposed to be here unlike birds such as smew which are winter visitors to this country and are to be expected even if it is only small numbers.Surely if an offence had been commited action would have been taken as there has been plenty of publicity of this case.

I've seen Brents being shot on Sheppey since then (1990s it would have been), so I'm surprised they aren't on the amended quarry list. unless they've been on and off again since.

Blue-winged Teal are on the official British List maintained by the BOU. As such they enjoy the general protection for all wild birds (except quarry species and listed vermin) which is that they may not be taken, injured or killed at any time. The Act very sensibly lists quarry and says everything else is protected. I am not sure of the position vis-a-vis a first for Britain pre-acceptance.

The particular Blue-winged Teal that started this thread was shot in Eire and I do not know what the provisions of any Irish bird protection laws are. Perhaps Harry or one of the other Irish birders can enlighten us.

John
 

Farnboro John

Well-known member
Sorry my mistake.

There's been alot of debate in this thread about the sustainability of hunting,well thats not a problem if birds are being reared and released for shooting(some of which will survive and add to the wild population)and the food being provided will not just benifit the released birds but many wild birds also.

Sustainability is not about whether the birds are put down for shooting. Indeed I would strongly suggest that the British Grey Partridge population is principally endangered by the immense numbers of non-native Red-legged Partridges put down for shooting on farmland across Britain.

Sustainability is about not creaming off more than the excess post-breeding population between end of breeding in one season and start of it in the next. As such it is essential that hunting is controlled in relation to populations from year to year. The incentive for hunters to take note of this is that if managed successfully they will continue to have quarry available. British and Irish wildfowlers are fairly good in this respect: other hunting groups are less so or not at all, almost any Mediterranean nation or those bordering the Red Sea and Persian Gulf spring to mind.

John
 

redshank2

Member
British and Irish wildfowlers are fairly good in this respect: other hunting groups are less so or not at all, almost any Mediterranean nation or those bordering the Red Sea and Persian Gulf spring to mind.

I would say this is the key to this debate: Hunters like birdwatchers are not a monolithic group; they range in knowledge, approach to their sport and care for the environment.

At best you have those like Peter Scott who either become or already are passionately committed to the environment for the maintainence of both quarry and other species. I am not especially familiar with the US or Irish situation with regards to hunting but think the gist of many posts here by people from those nations is that there there is often very responsible hunting that (albeit not for the few shot individual birds) is broadly beneficial to birds as a whole. I would say generally that a lot of wildfowlers in this country fall into this bracket too.

At worst you have the hunters of the mediterranean islands who blast away at anything and everything. I would also note that hunters shooting wild birds are far more likely to be responsible than shooters on stocked shoots.

We should not forget we have our own problems and birdwatching can disturb and harm birds too; from flushing to tape luring many of these issues have been discussed on this site.

The shooting of the particular bird that started this thread is sad yes, but what we should do is work together with hunters promoting responsible behaviour and enjoying what we share. After all a look at the history books shows that birdwatching evolved from shooting.

Tom
 

Adam W

Well-known member
Sustainability is not about whether the birds are put down for shooting. Indeed I would strongly suggest that the British Grey Partridge population is principally endangered by the immense numbers of non-native Red-legged Partridges put down for shooting on farmland across Britan.




Farming practices are the main if not only problem for Grey Partridges.If it wasnt for land being managed for shooting wether that be for Redlegs or not Grey Partridges would most definatly be in an even worse state.
 

Adam W

Well-known member
I've seen Brents being shot on Sheppey since then (1990s it would have been), so I'm surprised they aren't on the amended quarry list. unless they've been on and off again since.

The particular Blue-winged Teal that started this thread was shot in Eire and I do not know what the provisions of any Irish bird protection laws are. Perhaps Harry or one of the other Irish birders can enlighten us.

John



Brent definatly havent been on the list in my lifetime(born in 1982) its possible that a liceince may be have been obtained to shoot them in certain places for certain reasons but i'm not sure.

I confess to not being certain of the legal situation about the BW teal my previous comment was based on the fact that it had already been stated in this thread that no offence had been commited as the bird was not protected.
 

ColonelBlimp

What time is bird?
A kid killing garden birds with his air rifle: despicable.

A grown man killing wildfowl with a shotgun: respectable, upholding heritage, preserving habitat, understanding nature etc.

The issue is the same: two people killing living things for fun. Why should that be supported? Even taking a viewpoint that "oh well they're maintaining habitat" ignores the fact that the shooting area immediately being destroyed with shooting ceasing is a non sequitur: if the areas aren't already marginal enough to prevent development etc., taxation changes could swiftly provide money for maintenance. On lead shot, perhaps...

In addition, if we're going to bring the ethics of food provision into this, why is ambelopoulia production in the med thought so much worse than wildfowling? Both industries obtain food from birds- are we more squeamish about eating little twittery songbirds than dull ducks?
 

Jos Stratford

Beast from the East
A kid killing garden birds with his air rifle: despicable.

A grown man killing wildfowl with a shotgun: respectable, upholding heritage, preserving habitat, understanding nature etc.

The issue is the same: two people killing living things for fun. Why should that be supported?

...if the areas aren't already marginal enough to prevent development etc., taxation changes could swiftly provide money for maintenance...

I agree, the principle of killing birds and animals for fun is something that should be non-existant.

However, whether we approve or not, it is a fact that responsible hunting does, or at least does in some cases, contribute to conservation, to a better environment for birds and thus even if we were able to ban it, then the result is not going to be beneficial. Sure, we should be able to change taxation, provide grants, etc, to protect important areas purely for conservation, but however much money we get, there will always be more that could be done. In the UK, and especially beyond the UK, there are countless cases where conservation would simply would not get the funds to protect everything, even less to turn productive areas of agricultural land back into conservation lands - so in this cases, what would be better, the landowners maintain the relatively wildlife-poor land as it is, but don't hunt, or actively conserve and enhance the habitat, then conduct controlled hunt taking into account quotas to avoid depletion, etc.

And a glance around the world will quickly reveal many examples where hunting interests have led to habitat protection/improvement/creation - Bharatphur, one of world's top bird locaities, is a totally man-made place, created to satisfy hunting interests; hunting lodges in southern Africa, where former farmers actively enhanced habitat, took it out of production, restocked, but maintain these areas through hunting incomes; the whole duck stamp thing in the US; plus one of the places I plan to visit on my next trip is as I understand still in existance largely because hunters have resisited the massive financial returns they could make if they allowed the area to develop as in neighbouring areas.


As said at start, I am at best uneasy about speaking in favour of hunting interests, but when conducted responsibly and benefits are known to occur, all I can do is remain passive.

...which takes us to

why is ambelopoulia production in the med thought so much worse than wildfowling? Both industries obtain food from birds- are we more squeamish about eating little twittery songbirds than dull ducks?

Hunting on Malta, in Cyprus, in parts of France does not qualify under any of the reasons I stated before - there is no 'give back' by the hunting interests, quite the opposite - hunting elements in many parts of the Med have no concern for the species shot, they do not conduct shoots only on selective dates (unless selective mean whenever something flies over) and they do not seek to conserve lands to enhance overall populations or indeed maintain populations. There are also numerous documented cases of illegal shots over the few reserves that do exist (not created by hunters), plus examples of the hunters actually destroying reserves in acts of spite.

At its simplest, Maltese gunners, for example, simply engage in carnage, wildfowlers on the Slobs, duckhunters on Lake Ontario, range owners in the Zambezi do not.
 
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Adam W

Well-known member
At its simplest, Maltese gunners, for example, simply engage in carnage, wildfowlers on the Slobs, duckhunters on Lake Ontario, range owners in the Zambezi do not.



Exactly, nobody should under any circumstances should confuse the disgraceful things that happen in Malta to responsible shooting in this country or other parts of the world.
 

ChrisKten

It's true, I quite like Pigeons
Let's see if I've got this right:

Hunting is acceptable to many in this thread because, as far as Conservation is concerned, it's better than no Hunting. It's better than no Hunting, because the Government, and those that elect the Government, don't care enough about Conservation to waste too much of Tax Payers money on it. Is that about right?

And if I'm right; if the situation was to change, and large amounts of money became available for Conservation, would Hunting still be acceptable? And if not, why not?


Yes, I'm being a bit of a troll, but I'm also wondering if people are just a bit too willing to compromise. Should people acept that killing for "Sport" is fine as long as there's some money/land gained for Conservation?
 

Jos Stratford

Beast from the East
.... those that elect the Government, don't care enough about Conservation to waste too much of Tax Payers money on it. Is that about right?

Not what I said. The government may well care about conservation, it could even allocate a massive percentage of its GDP into conservation, but if private landowners are willing to go further and protect yet further land, to manage in wildlife friendly ways and to responsibly then hunt upon it, then still conservation is the winner.



Should people acept that killing for "Sport" is fine as long as there's some money/land gained for Conservation?

I don't like killing for sport, but if the final choice is between a fine wetland full of birds, occasionally hunted, and a fairly sterile crop for example, then I would reluctantly accept it.
 

Pete Mella

Getting there...
I share many poster's passive stance to hunting here, not really understanding the mentality of those who enjoy it but recognising it grudgingly as a necessary evil in some cases, if done sustainably, to preserve habitats (if you're willing to ban hunting that has no impact on population numbers at the cost of removing a financial interest that is integral in protecting habitats then you're talking animal rights, not conservation).

Saying all that wildfowl hunting isn't a big issue in any of the areas I go birding, and I'm sure I'd be annoyed by it on a selfish "ruining my day" kind of way if it did.

I have to ask though - why shoot a rarity like blue-winged teal? Surely this is only going to antagonise birdwatchers and fray what is qiuite possibly already an uneasy relationship?
 

ChrisKten

It's true, I quite like Pigeons
I wasn't aiming my comments at you specifically, Jos. I'm not sure if people (not just you) are accepting Hunting as a necessary evil, or whether Hunting is accepted as a good thing in itself.

The problem I have with people accepting Hunting because of it's Conservation benefits, is what else will they accept? Would, for instance, Dog Fighting be acceptable if a small Nature Reserve was built by the participating Dog owners? (yes, I know that's extreme)

I just get the feeling that some Conversationalists have been bought off by the Hunting Lobby, so to speak (I don't mean literally).
 

Jos Stratford

Beast from the East
I'm not sure if people (not just you) are accepting Hunting as a necessary evil, or whether Hunting is accepted as a good thing in itself.

As things stand, it's the former for me, though perhaps evil is not the word I would use.


Would, for instance, Dog Fighting be acceptable if a small Nature Reserve was built by the participating Dog owners? (yes, I know that's extreme)

It would have to be a very big nature reserve ;)
 

Pete Mella

Getting there...
So....do we rely on hunters to protect and purchase sites for their own "bloodlust" and "sport"?....
or do we wake up, invest more resources into conservation to buy internationally imporatant sites to PRESERVE nature (not KILL it).
The world is a strange place for sure...
"Whats hit is history, whats missed is a mystery"....praise the old gunmen for bagging us our first Pallas` Warbler etc...but o wait...our morals surfaced and we all realised this was wrong and got rid of it....comprende...?
Call me a MORON again..whatever you want..im controversial..sure....but I retain the higher ground..
BTW you wanna test your aim..? Clay Pigeons go go...

I don't think it's taking the higher ground to say you'd like to ban hunting even if the bottom line shows wildlife is in the ironic position of being better off with it than without it. "Do we wake up and invest more resources into conservation...?" you ask. Where exactly is this money coming from?

Conservation is something that requires pragmatism and in some cases working with how the world is and not how it should work in a perfect world. I agree it's an uneasy truce when it's combined with bloodsports, and it's not something I'm 100% supportive of in all cases, but if (legal) hunters are staying within the rules and genuinely not affecting species population sizes or ruining breeding attempts then they are not causing problems from a conservation point of view.

As much as many on here would disagree with this conservationists are about protecting habitats and conserving species as a whole, not about preventing the deaths of individual animals. The latter is an animal rights issue.
 
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Cortonbirds

Well-known member
Not much extra money would be needed in fact as long as the really important sites are targetted.eg Wexford Slobs for its internationally important Greenland Whitefront population among many other species. For example would we all be ok if we went to Cley, Titchwell Marsh (itself, i know they occaisionally shoot on Thornham marsh), Minsmere, Dungeness, Welney or Martin Mere etc and saw hunters blasting the hell out of all in sight...???
The RSPB has such resources available with the correct targetting as does the national trust etc etc etc.
I concede that banning hunting would have a detrimental effect on many areas upkeep, but like I said I find it strange that we have to rely on hunter conserved areas for the protection of wildlife in this land.
 

apbarr

Well-known member
As a former Falconer, wildfowler and currently an aviculturalist and birder I have been reading this thread with interest. I personally stopped shooting for sport a long time ago but fully understand the enjoyment it can bring. Hunters certainly preserve and enhance habitat but every gamekeeper I've known either shot or trapped/killed or trapped/released birds of prey on their patch, none left them alone. Despite this I believe that overall hunting definitely benefits wildlife, particularly where habitat is actively maintained by the hunters. It would be totally impractical to find the money required to protect all these areas from the public purse/conservation organisations. Provided the birds are shot for food or at least end up being eaten I don't think there is a valid reason to ban hunting.
 

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