California Gull in Spain? (1 Viewer)

[JANJ]

Hi all.

Some ideas on this seond cykle (2nd winter) gull, spotted near Madrid on November 30th on a rubbish dump.

http://cid-fd6e910e72a9a144.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Gull ID

JanJ

 

[London Birder]

Hi all.

Some ideas on this seond cykle (2nd winter) gull, spotted near Madrid on November 30th on a rubbish dump.

http://cid-fd6e910e72a9a144.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Gull ID

JanJ

Certainly looks a worthy Californian candidate (usual caveat with photos though). Bill and head structure look good and it appears quite long-winged. Head streaking, suggestion of neck boa, rather uniform gtr cov and tertial pattern appear to hold well. Can Californian show similar streaks on upper flanks (and fainter, thin ones more ventrally)?

Flight shots would be instructive.

 

[Gentoo]

California gulls can be a little variable at this age. I am having a hard time trying to figure out what else it could be. Put this bird here at Lake Murray or Lake Merritt and I would not notice it seriously.

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/33916134

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/37243626

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/91542713

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/54247966

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/93992509

Lot's of variation at this age as shown in this species. Size and shape wise, it seem about right next to the LBBG.

 

[Hans Larsson]

Looks really interesting! Like Des says flight shots would be most useful. Or a live view, of course.. Theoretically, a Herring Gull could show a similar plumage, but it gets harder when it comes to the very "Californian" size and shape of this bird...

 

[l_raty]

'Wouldn't call it a "typical California Gull" structurally - although I'm not fully sure either that this would exclude this ID.
Typical California Gulls appear shorter-legged and smaller-headed to my eye - or, looking at it the other way around: when resting with the neck retracted, they usually look like if they had a slightly "too large body" in comparison to their extremities. I completely fail to get this feeling from the Spanish bird.

 

[p wolf]

hi all,

I don't know much about Californian Gull but I do get to see lots of argenteus and argentatus. This bird looks interesting and I agree with Hans that it is mostly the stance and shape of the bird that makes it stand out. Looking at the ruffled median coverts it seems that the bird is facing into a stiff breeze. That will at least make the bird appear more slender that it really is and could in part explain the strange impression it makes. Size usually isn't easy to judge from pictures but this bird is clearly smaller than the Lesser Black-backed Gulls next to and behind it, making it smaller than any argenteus/argentatus I've ever seen in the Netherlands. On the other hand, the more I look at those pics the less odd it looks and I wonder if there is anything in this bird's plumage that cannot be matched by European Herring Gull (L. a. argenteus)? Those greater coverts are very plain for argenteus and look more like the pattern seen in some argentatus but even that is not completely unheard of. It is surely not a "classic" argenteus but there hardly is a standard herring Gull, especially in this agegroup.

Has anybody got any information on the status of Californian on the east coast? Any ringing (banding) recoveries?

 

[London Birder]

try as I might I cannot equate it with argenteus/argentatus from those pics, the bill almost looks RBG sized where its alongside the LBBG, the legs appear far too thin (same pic) and may even have a bluey-green cast to them.

Not stating it is a Californian, and flight shots would be insightful, but HG isn't working for me.

 

[JANJ]

Laurent,s has a good point about the body size and short legs, which is precisely the impression one gets when seeing California. Apart from the long wings - if we stick to that - a Herring Gull could probably not be entierly excluded, but would anyway be kind of a longshot in my opinion. Adding to the leglengt - redusing head streaking - awhy not a female chachinnans? There´s also a video, which I couldn´t get to work properly, although the people involved are going to try and relocate the bird this weekend and try to film it, among 1200 LBBG and 10000 Black-headed Gulls. Then we can only hope for some more good shots of the wings and tail and showing more of structure of this gull.
Otherwise, the plumage, bill size/shape and pattern oof the bill looks surpricingly good for a 2nd cycle californicus. However one should be aware of the variability in californicus in this age group!
One feature I would like to see more clearly on this gull - is the bluish cast to the legs (at least the tibia) and bill, which is in my opinion - more or less -always present in californicus - especially in this age group. In the images there is a hint of that bluish cast, both on the bill and legs but whether this is true or not - dificult to say, I´ll ask the finder of the gull.
According to Howell & Dunn californicus is a casual to rare but increasing vagrant in Midwest, Great Lakes region, Mid-Atlantic states, Southeast, and on Gulf of Mexico east to Florida. Most frecuently recorded from se. Ontario (over 30 records; Oct. - early Jan., Mar. - June), including an incubating female in a Ring-billed colony near Toronto in 1981 and 1982.
On Mid-Atlantic coast, now annual Chesapeake Bayregionand Outer Banks, N.C. Farthest ne. records.

JanJ

 

[JANJ]

As shown by Harry at Surfbirds forum - it has been suggested that the spanish gull could be a small female 'lusitanius' type. The thought had occured to me but since I have only seen a few of these and didn´t find a good match on the webb, and the fact that the gull in question shows good californicus features I stuck to that. Probably these might sugggest otherwise, especially the one at Euring 5 from September.

http://www.aranzadi-zientziak.org/fileadmin/webs/EAT/Html/gaviota_patiamarilla-esp.html

JanJ

 

[London Birder]

As shown by Harry at Surfbirds forum - it has been suggested that the spanish gull could be a small female 'lusitanius' type. The thought had occured to me but since I have only seen a few of these and didn´t find a good match on the webb, and the fact that the gull in question shows good californicus features I stuck to that. Probably these might sugggest otherwise, especially the one at Euring 5 from September.

http://www.aranzadi-zientziak.org/fileadmin/webs/EAT/Html/gaviota_patiamarilla-esp.html

JanJ

I think that's probably the best suggestion so far, and far more likely than a Californian Gull of course.

 

[lou salomon]

I think that's probably the best suggestion so far, and far more likely than a Californian Gull of course.

hello,

these are direct links to the lusitanicus birds jan was referring to:

http://www.aranzadi-sciences.org/fileadmin/webs/EAT/Html/images/G030_001.jpg

http://www.aranzadi-sciences.org/fileadmin/webs/EAT/Html/images/G030_002.jpg

and this is the video (quite good quality) of the discussed bird:

http://cid-fd6e910e72a9a144.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Aves/Gull ID/Gull ssp Full HD.avi

initially i couldn't see anything else than california gull in the madrid bird. especially the long primary projection didn't allow the suggestion of a very small herring gull.
its head however doesn't look as rounded and comparatively small as in normal california gulls. the iris is a little bit paler than in california. still there seemed little room for any other LWHG.

then daniel l. velasco wrote a longer mail to the birdinggulls list pleading for lusitanicus YLG basically telling that some 2nd winters of this ssp. (breeding at the atlantic coast of iberian pen.) show such a strongly bicoloured bill and that some females are really dwarfy. still i was reluctant to accept the YLG hypothesis. then again lusitanicus birds in many respects resemble herring gulls with later moult than michahellis YLGs and stronger head striation. in addition, i remember a 2nd winter michahellis(!) YLG at bodensee, germany, with strikingly bicoloured bill, very similar to the subject bird.

after i saw the 2 ringed lusitanicus linked above i knew what daniel meant. they seem a good match for the mystery gull from the madrid dump. i'm happy to learn about these variations!

still - with this background of a possible YLG, a thorough analyses is needed. the general appearance of this bird is so strikingly different to most YLGs, even small ones i have seen, that i don't totally give up the possibility of it being a california gull.

more pics and more comments from people from the other side of the pond being familiar with california gull (albertaensis?) would be most welcomed.

regards,

 

[lou salomon]

this kind of bill pattern is sometimes found even in 2nd winter michahellis YLG. i looked a bit through my pics and found some with not exactly that amount of pale on bill, but almost. and the bodensee bird i told of was really similar to the madrid bird.

pics 1-2 by joszef szabo jun, romania, 4.11.2007
pic 3 by cr. mihai, bucharest, 12.02.08

 

[Gentoo]

hello,

these are direct links to the lusitanicus birds jan was referring to:

http://www.aranzadi-sciences.org/fileadmin/webs/EAT/Html/images/G030_001.jpg

http://www.aranzadi-sciences.org/fileadmin/webs/EAT/Html/images/G030_002.jpg

and this is the video (quite good quality) of the discussed bird:

http://cid-fd6e910e72a9a144.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Aves/Gull ID/Gull ssp Full HD.avi

initially i couldn't see anything else than california gull in the madrid bird. especially the long primary projection didn't allow the suggestion of a very small herring gull.
its head however doesn't look as rounded and comparatively small as in normal california gulls. the iris is a little bit paler than in california. still there seemed little room for any other LWHG.

then daniel l. velasco wrote a longer mail to the birdinggulls list pleading for lusitanicus YLG basically telling that some 2nd winters of this ssp. (breeding at the atlantic coast of iberian pen.) show such a strongly bicoloured bill and that some females are really dwarfy. still i was reluctant to accept the YLG hypothesis. then again lusitanicus birds in many respects resemble herring gulls with later moult than michahellis YLGs and stronger head striation. in addition, i remember a 2nd winter michahellis(!) YLG at bodensee, germany, with strikingly bicoloured bill, very similar to the subject bird.

after i saw the 2 ringed lusitanicus linked above i knew what daniel meant. they seem a good match for the mystery gull from the madrid dump. i'm happy to learn about these variations!

still - with this background of a possible YLG, a thorough analyses is needed. the general appearance of this bird is so strikingly different to most YLGs, even small ones i have seen, that i don't totally give up the possibility of it being a california gull.

more pics and more comments from people from the other side of the pond being familiar with california gull (albertaensis?) would be most welcomed.

regards,

I'm working on it. I am flying up to Oakland later today with my camera gear. Gulls are more numerous there this time of year and I will post some but that won't be till next week when I get back.

I just studied the subject bird again and compared it to pics of same age CAGU I've seen and on the web. While I am not familiar with the variations in YLGU, I am with CAGU and if this bird were to land in a flock here in coastal California, I would not give it a second look.

The short legged look does suggest albertaensis but that ssp. often appears a bit stockier. Usually by this age many albertaensis have clean white sides:

http://www.pbase.com/shonn/image/91798408

The Spanish bird seems a bit more typical as far as the nominate race is concerned and the legs, while shorter than a LBBG or HEGU, don't seem as short as albertaensis.