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Canon 7D MkIII .... (1 Viewer)

The ball is certainly in Canon's court and they need to impress with this next iteration. I had the Mark 2 and loved it. Crop sensor was a huge plus for the extra reach in the lens. I wonder if the market is still there for DSLR's over mirrorless though. We will see.
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Well this is not very encouraging at all !!!

7D II is the end of the line .... ?
To merge with the x0D line ---> 90D
https://www.canonrumors.com/is-the-...st-in-the-7d-series-were-told-that-it-is-cr1/

I hope this (irregular sourced) rumour is just dead set wrong.

The 7D III is well overdue,
The 7D II is getting flogged in the market place,
24MP and single digit fps is just not going to cut it,

Blind Freddy could see that Canon need a 7D III to compete with the Nikon D500 let alone any upgraded D500S.

Surely the secretive Canon 1DX III will spawn an APS-C 'PRO' little brother .... ? :cat: :brains:




Chosun :gh:
 
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njlarsen

Gallery Moderator
Opus Editor
Supporter
Barbados
I read the rumor to say the eventual replacement will be a mirrorless. However, full frame vs APC? Analysts say that full frame will be only25-30 of the total market, but canon seems to think it will be where the profit is.

Niles
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
I read the rumor to say the eventual replacement will be a mirrorless. However, full frame vs APC? Analysts say that full frame will be only25-30 of the total market, but canon seems to think it will be where the profit is.

Niles
Yes, this is a possibility. Either way I think Canon are dumping on their customers (and potential customers) from a great height.

I highly doubt that any 90D (despite a better sensor) is going to be up to 7D III levels of fps, AF tracking accuracy, buffer depth, and processing speed, ergonomics and pro control, build quality levels - durability /weather sealing.

It just doesn't make sense.

As for a Mirrorless '7D III' successor - those waters are even muddier.

I would suggest that the FF high res 'R8' of 70MP won't cut it even though it has an APS-C resolution of ~27MP. I can't see it being up to snuff fps (AF & AE tracking), buffer, or ergonomics wise. It may be capable processor wise in DX mode, but this thing would have to cost a bomb ..... and there are no native long lenses for at least a generation. And then of course the EVF's are not really up to snuff for high speed work yet and able to match the real life comfort of an OVF.

A dedicated R mount APS-C Mirrorless '7D III' could be optimised better for less cost, but I would still question whether at this time the mirrorless system AF and ergonomics are up to 'Pro' work .... and honestly - how long is it going to take to get here ..... 2021+ ?

To my mind, Canon should have had a DSLR 7D III released last year or early this year at the latest. It should have been 24 ~32MP with at least 10fps, and class leading AF (including tracking and AE). There must be stacks of 7D II owners out there disgruntled at getting thumped by Nikon's D500 for nearly 3 years now. As well as plenty of folk like me who would like to jump into Canon's leading light weight lenses but can't live with the duff bodies ..... that's a lot of $ going begging.

Yes I know the 7D II works 'ok' .... but if I'm going to outlay umpteen thousand dollars - I want to know that I have the best.





Chosun :gh:
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
I just don't get it ......

Now comes a report that Canon is lowering it's 2019 Profit Forecast by 20% in the face of Smartphone Photography advancement ....... unbelievable ! :eek!:
https://m.dpreview.com/news/2376449...fit-forecast-20-due-to-shrinking-camera-sales

So what's the one glaring omission in the Canon line up at the moment ? .......... why the 7D III of course ! :brains:

What is the one area where DSLR's /Mirrorless (once developed more with native lenses) excel and no Smartphone can touch ? ....... why high speed /long lens / low light photography of course ! ........ what product would widen that gap, be available to large numbers of consumers, enthusiasts, and pro's, thus proving highly profitable ? .......... the 7D III !!! :king: :smoke:

This sleeping at the wheel business is very depressing :-C





Chosun :gh:
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
A 7D MkIII by any other name .... ???

News of a new 32.5MP APS-C 'hybrid' xD / x0D DSLR ....
https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-registers-a-32-5mp-aps-c-dslr-in-taiwan/

This is either a stop gap for a long long overdue 7DIII, which may then be released after the 1DXIII next year, or .....

This is it ! This hybrid positioned APS-C DSLR (most likely called the 90D) will be the top dawg and a truly 'Pro' level APS-C camera from Canon will have to wait for the Mirrorless iteration way way way down the track. The mail seems to be that this is the DSLR way that Canon will go .......
If so, let's hope it inherits an extra chromosome from the 7D side of the family ..... a 7D MkIII by any other name if you will ......

I could live with the smaller, lighter body provided they upgrade the weather sealing (I'm thinking more in terms of dust in practice) , cram dual digics in there, and retain the performance parameters of the 7D line, and improve AF etc to at least IDXII levels .....
It would have to whoop the Nikon D500 .....

It would be nice if Canon would come out with a clear indication ..... no wonder their sales are crashing .....




Chosun :gh:
 

etudiant

Registered User
Supporter
Given the Canon forecast of a 50% decline in camera sales, it seems inescapable that they prune their product line severely.

Looking at the 18% slump in one year reported by Nikon, Canon's expectations seem reasonable, perhaps even optimistic. In that context, perhaps the 7D line is one of those affected.
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Given the Canon forecast of a 50% decline in camera sales, it seems inescapable that they prune their product line severely.

Looking at the 18% slump in one year reported by Nikon, Canon's expectations seem reasonable, perhaps even optimistic. In that context, perhaps the 7D line is one of those affected.
Yes, that was their indicated strategy, though I think that pruning the top-end, the APS-C halo 'Pro' model is not the way to go.

There is huge demand there from the enthusiast (prosumer/pro) customer - especially for a product that will outdo the competition Nikon D500. DX is the only way to get that longer length 'crop factor' focal length that is a necessity for bird photographers not wishing to use TC's, or get away with lower power ones (the widest aperture overall is always desirable).

This is the one area that smartphones (even the new ~160mm eq telephoto ones - Huawei, Oppo) cannot compete with. By all means rationalize the absolutely **bewildering plethora of incremental niche models below the 7D, but if this really is the end of the 7D DSLR line then it's a strategic marketing miss imo. Until FF is cranking out 50MP at 20fps then there will always be a need for a Pro DX.

It really is a case of "if you build it they will come"

** The following 'mess' (from DPReview's product database) is Canon's APS-C (DSLR only) current and recent model line up - a potential new customer would need a PhD in obfuscation to sort it out and decide on a purchase !
● Canon EOS Rebel SL3 (EOS 250D / EOS Kiss X10)
● Canon EOS Rebel T7 (EOS 2000D)
● Canon EOS 4000D
● Canon EOS Rebel SL2 (EOS 200D / Kiss X9)
● Canon EOS 77D / EOS 9000D
● Canon EOS Rebel T7i / EOS 800D / Kiss X9i
● Canon EOS Rebel T6 (EOS 1300D)
● Canon EOS 80D
● Canon EOS Rebel T6s (EOS 760D / EOS 8000D)
● Canon EOS Rebel T6i (EOS 750D / Kiss X8i)
● Canon EOS 7D Mark II
● Canon EOS 1200D (EOS Rebel T5 / EOS Kiss X70)
● Canon EOS 70D
● Canon EOS Rebel SL1 (EOS 100D)
● Canon EOS 700D (EOS Rebel T5i / EOS Kiss X7i)
● Canon EOS Rebel T4i (EOS 650D / EOS Kiss X6i)
● Canon EOS 60Da
● Canon EOS 600D (EOS Rebel T3i / EOS Kiss X5)
● Canon EOS 1100D (EOS Rebel T3 / EOS Kiss X50)
● Canon EOS 60D
● Canon EOS 550D (EOS Rebel T2i / EOS Kiss X4)
● Canon EOS 500D (EOS Rebel T1i / EOS Kiss X3)

Say what ! :eek!: :-O

Imagine running into that lot for the first time ! :brains: Surely whoever came up with the "KISS" designation was just having a giant lend. It's no wonder that younger generations with attention spans of around 1.4 seconds are turning away in droves .......




Chosun :gh:
 

etudiant

Registered User
Supporter
You make a good case, Canon marketing is not coherent.
Unfortunately, cameras are only a minor market for Canon, so perhaps the firm is not sufficiently focused on this sector. They would be more successful here if they were.
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
More '90D' rumours .....

Specs of the '90D' rumoured
https://www.canonnews.com/preliminary-specifications-of-the-90d

7D line going out with a whimper ...... ?

This spec list certainly ticks a lot of boxes (dual Digics, 10fps, etc) , but there is no mention of the metering unit resolution, or indeed notion of how well the '90D' AF system performs with its reduced number of points in comparison to the 7DII.

So the question is - Is this '90D' a Nikon D7500 competitor? or a D500 competitor? The last DSLR hurrah? , or prelude to a proper 7DIII even further (arrgggh! and egad! that's really stretching a friendship! :eek!: ) down the track? (just prior /after, the flagship 1DXIII is announced ready for the 2020 Olympics .....)

Only Canon knows ...... I just hope they still have an audience when they are ready to tell ! :cat:






Chosun :gh:
 

njlarsen

Gallery Moderator
Opus Editor
Supporter
Barbados
Yes, that was their indicated strategy, though I think that pruning the top-end, the APS-C halo 'Pro' model is not the way to go.

There is huge demand there from the enthusiast (prosumer/pro) customer - especially for a product that will outdo the competition Nikon D500. DX is the only way to get that longer length 'crop factor' focal length that is a necessity for bird photographers not wishing to use TC's, or get away with lower power ones (the widest aperture overall is always desirable).

This is the one area that smartphones (even the new ~160mm eq telephoto ones - Huawei, Oppo) cannot compete with. By all means rationalize the absolutely **bewildering plethora of incremental niche models below the 7D, but if this really is the end of the 7D DSLR line then it's a strategic marketing miss imo. Until FF is cranking out 50MP at 20fps then there will always be a need for a Pro DX.

It really is a case of "if you build it they will come"

** The following 'mess' (from DPReview's product database) is Canon's APS-C (DSLR only) current and recent model line up - a potential new customer would need a PhD in obfuscation to sort it out and decide on a purchase !
● Canon EOS Rebel SL3 (EOS 250D / EOS Kiss X10)
● Canon EOS Rebel T7 (EOS 2000D)
● Canon EOS 4000D
● Canon EOS Rebel SL2 (EOS 200D / Kiss X9)
● Canon EOS 77D / EOS 9000D
● Canon EOS Rebel T7i / EOS 800D / Kiss X9i
● Canon EOS Rebel T6 (EOS 1300D)
● Canon EOS 80D
● Canon EOS Rebel T6s (EOS 760D / EOS 8000D)
● Canon EOS Rebel T6i (EOS 750D / Kiss X8i)
● Canon EOS 7D Mark II
● Canon EOS 1200D (EOS Rebel T5 / EOS Kiss X70)
● Canon EOS 70D
● Canon EOS Rebel SL1 (EOS 100D)
● Canon EOS 700D (EOS Rebel T5i / EOS Kiss X7i)
● Canon EOS Rebel T4i (EOS 650D / EOS Kiss X6i)
● Canon EOS 60Da
● Canon EOS 600D (EOS Rebel T3i / EOS Kiss X5)
● Canon EOS 1100D (EOS Rebel T3 / EOS Kiss X50)
● Canon EOS 60D
● Canon EOS 550D (EOS Rebel T2i / EOS Kiss X4)
● Canon EOS 500D (EOS Rebel T1i / EOS Kiss X3)

Say what ! :eek!: :-O

Imagine running into that lot for the first time ! :brains: Surely whoever came up with the "KISS" designation was just having a giant lend. It's no wonder that younger generations with attention spans of around 1.4 seconds are turning away in droves .......




Chosun :gh:

In all fairness, that list seems to include about 7 generations worth of cameras. If you go to a shop (even online) you will likely get a much more restricted list. If going equally far back with Nikon models I suspect you will get almost as much confusion, having for example d7500, d7200, d7100, d7000 and similar series in 3xxx and 5xxx.

Niels
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
In all fairness, that list seems to include about 7 generations worth of cameras. If you go to a shop (even online) you will likely get a much more restricted list. If going equally far back with Nikon models I suspect you will get almost as much confusion, having for example d7500, d7200, d7100, d7000 and similar series in 3xxx and 5xxx.

Niels
Niels,

Yes, there are lots of generations there. The point is it is way too confusing for a new entrant to the market (who would also be trying to sift through all the MFT offerings, and Fujifilm, Sony, and Nikon [obsolete 1 series], Mirrorless etc, though would probably rule most kit out on price alone, as well as Canon's own EOS-M range, and Nikon and other DSLR's, etc)

At least the Nikon offerings - roughly 3xxx, 5xxx, 7xxx, 8xx line up with the thoroughly familiar (to just about everyone on the planet I would imagine) Automotive world - pioneered by BMW's 3, 5, and 7 series, and now copied by other brands.

The critical difference is that a Nikon 5600 is a Nikon 5600 no matter whether it is sold in Japan, Europe, America, or anywhere else in the world.

Unlike Canon, it doesn't weirdly morph into another model with completely different names and numbering systems dependent on market.

Canon is a mess, and it comes as a result of Canon's micromanagement of market segments and niches. In effect it has lost its way by focusing so much on the marketing presentation that the actual products and strategic direction are becoming increasingly irrelevant to an ever increasing population. It's smoke and mirrors instead of meat without the feathers. That's why their market share is falling in key segments, but more importantly sales and overall market is plummeting.

Although Japanese companies have long term strategic plans, they seem blinkered to the paradigm shift that has occurred under their feet with the ubiquitous smartphone camera and instant connectivity.

I thought it was fascinating that the new multi camera, telephoto, and HDR capable Huawei P30 Pro smartphone launched as "rewriting the rules of photography". Never mind the more powerful computer and portable office than most people would have completed their learning and studying on, and the instant connectivity in multiple formats.

No amount of Canon renaming various irrelevant models in various markets is going to address that.

The one thing that they could do to secure the company reputation - namely leading halo flagship models - they have steadfastly refused to do in APS-C with this interminable delay of the very much needed 7DIII.




Chosun :gh:
 

edenwatcher

Well-known member
Reappraisal surely means cutting product lines. Those customers won't come back, regardless of the quality of the cameras. Those of us who use DSLRs will have to get used to the fact. It is very difficult to see how things will evolve, meanwhile enjoy what we've got...

Rob
 

temmie

Well-known member
The only thing I know is DSLR still has an edge on mirrorless for long-lens wildlife photography, unless you spend more for your mirrorless set-up than an equal (sensor size / lens millimeters / F-number) DSLR setup.

Yes, you have a weight decrease with mirrorless, but if you e.g. compare to the PF Nikon lenses (that 300F is really small and light), the difference is negligible.
Olympus has a better (superior) sensor stabilizer in its OMD range bodies but if you combine it with its (excellent) 300mm lens, it's at least 50% more expensive than a similar Canon or Nikon setup.

There is quite some improvement to make (especially on stabilizer and sensor) for Canon, but at the moment, I am shooting very sharp pictures (from time to time!) and I am thus not desperately waiting (or going with the herd, making the leap to mirrorless) for a new camera. So I don't understand the canon bashing in this topic, at all.

To illustrate this, most of the shots below are cropped, some early morning thus poor light, all are size-reduced without sharpening afterwards, and with a 5-year old Canon 300mmF4 IS (first generation) + 1.4 converter II (a good but less than ideal lens combo, with 2 stops optical stabilizer), and the (now very famous because from this topic it seems a very bad camera) Canon 7D mark II, that is happily used by thousands if not millions.

Judge for yourself and tell me why I should be nervously looking at other systems.

https://observation.org/waarneming/view/171660595?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/171660388?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/171660306?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/171660241?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/172293308?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/171660171?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/171660104?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/166269774?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/166269764?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/166269728?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/166270774?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/166269678?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/166269636?_popup=1
https://observation.org/waarneming/view/161961664?_popup=1
 

temmie

Well-known member
Exactly, but we're both birders who take pictures.
Rob

That's true, but I think most on this forum are birders with a camera, and still, I see some people desperately looking for upgrades while they will never make a penny from any shot they take.

Some -amateur / wannabe professional- photographers take their photography way to serious, I see them catering a public of flickr/instagram/FB fans but nothing more (for sure no paid shots) and they still think they have to invest 1000s of euros/dollars/pounds every 2 years in another system to keep up with those that are sponsored by the big brands.

It reminds me a bit of cycling. I am an amateur cyclist competing from time to time, and all I see these days are super expensive bikes with disc brakes (because the pros ride them), but they don't go any faster and they don't make any money from it.
All well if you do it for your own pleasure and each their own hobby, but running like hamsters in a mill, trying to keep up with the rat race spending more than monthly salaries on new stuff that is incrementally better, wouldn't be my definition of pleasure.
 

njlarsen

Gallery Moderator
Opus Editor
Supporter
Barbados
Temmie, I am not sure I buy everything you write about cost and weight of mirrorless. I am using Panasonic: g85 and PL 100-400. This is a good enough setup that I get some keepers, even when doing purple martin in flight. So I tried to compare size/cost for a setup to give a similar reach using the nikon PF series as you mentioned. However, to get close I had to go for the PF500 and I chose a not top of the line body, the d7500 (similarly, my camera is not top of the pana line, that would be G9, and I included that camera body as well for the hell of it). So the comparison is (all numbers from DPReview except cost which was Amazon.com):
Weight incl lens Nikon 2180, g85 1490, G9 1643
Reach Nikon 750, g85 800, G9 800
Cost Nikon 4392, g85 2190, G9 2792 (in US$)

I like to have a zoom, and possibly should have hunted for a zoom setup for Nikon but that would certainly be heavier (Tamron 150-600 would have added about 550 grams to the nikon setup but would have brought the cost down to about the same as my g85 setup)

Anyway, this is a bit of a tangent to the original content of this thread

Niels
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Blah, blah, blah. Yet still Canon has by far the largest market share for interchangeable lens cameras.

Rob

Reappraisal surely means cutting product lines. Those customers won't come back, regardless of the quality of the cameras. Those of us who use DSLRs will have to get used to the fact. It is very difficult to see how things will evolve, meanwhile enjoy what we've got...

Rob
Just like the biggest horse buggy maker ?
https://www.resilience.org/stories/2013-03-15/the-big-shift-last-time-from-horse-dung-to-car-smog/
That's a lot of doodoo .... must have been interesting times !

Cutting product lines is a zero sum game. Already as Etudiant has said, you can see the big manufacturers fighting it out for scraps in a significantly declining market - ergo the move to higher profitability FF segments like salmon swimming upstream, and the already evident discounting .....

In my view, rather than fighting it out in a lose-lose situation, the entire industry would be better off banding together to collaborate on a common curved sensor standard and suitable mount standards in considered formats. This would be a far more efficient use of resources delivering a quicker and cheaper change to consumers than the current virtually duplicated designs, minimally different feature sets, and pointless marketing differentiation wasting time, money, effort, and resources.

Unless the industry also addresses connectivity and instant easy processing/ storage/ sharing etc they will continue to lose market share to smartphones.

Curved Mirrorless Sensors, and Diffractive Optics Lenses are the only currently viable technology (with development) that will physically deliver smaller and much lighter photography systems per sensor size format.

This thread was not set up to be a 'Canon bashing' piece - rather the genuine excitement at the prospect of a new flagship APS-C model. What an exercise in frustration being a Canon customer is ! Great lenses (and cutting edge developments in them) - but the 7DII has been getting flogged by the Nikon D500 for more than 3 years now, and loyal customers (or prospective converts) have been getting dumped on from a great height.

I don't think it's too much to ask of a "market share leader" to have a fair dinkum go ....... :cat:





Chosun :gh:
 
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