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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Björn Bergenholtz" data-source="post: 4023275" data-attributes="member: 113430">Reopening of the Carmiol mess ... sigh!Sorry guys, sorry to disturb the peace and serenity (in what seems to be some sort of consensus), but after having spent the main part of last week (in frustration) trying to understand what happened, who the Carmiols (Father and Son) truly were, and how it all went down, I simply have to awake this slumbering thread, ... as I think there still remain (at least) some serious doubts, or possibly (straight down) errors, alt. obvious confusions and mix-ups, still present, still lurking around, in this very topic ...But not regarding "Fransisco Carmiol" (the former Franz Carnigohl), and "his" bird (i.e. my main concern):• Carmiol's Tanager (Habia) Chlorothraupis carmioli LAWRENCE 1868 (1870), OD in #8, as "Phœnicothraupis carmioli" [a k a carmiolkardinal, in Swedish, thereby my interest in this topic, and these guys].I have no doubts what-so-ever on him, I believe we do have him in full, and that all is correct on his part; i.e.; "Fransisco Carmiol" [alt. in the South/Latin American, or Costa Rican way; "Fransisco Carmiol Prössel" (or ditto Proessel, if having trouble with the letter ö) <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />], born as (in short) Franz Carnigohl, on the 26th of June 1844, in Berlin, in (Prussian) Germany  ... and onwards ... until he died 29th of March 1875, in San José, Costa Rica (after having been bitten by a snake). That far all is well (and quite an achievement, I think), and here I could stop, but simply to get some more flesh on the bone (for my MS entry on Franz/"Fransisco") I would like to mention his Father as well, in some sort of depth (not only in brief, by name, but also with his full years).And it's at this point, on the years of his Father I run into both trouble and doubt (simply as I cannot fit the different pieces together). The thing that still remain (in my mind) is the actual years of his father; "Don Julián Carmiol" (the former Julius Carnigohl. I´m far less convinced on the recent findings and developments in this thread, on the "new" years for his Father Don Carmiol ... and most certainly so, regarding when he's claimed to have died.To keep it all on track; his father, the former German gardener, is commemorated (both with clear and out-spoken dedications) on/in:• the Yellow-winged Vireo Vireo carmioli BAIRD 1866 (OD in #15) a k a Carmiol's Vireo [in Swedish, it's simply costaricavireo, which is far easier to explain <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />)]• the invalid (and misspelt!) "Chalybura Carnioli" [sic] LAWRENCE 1865, (OD also in post #15, and/or #1) [a synonym of the Bronze-tailed Plumeleteer ssp. Chalybura urochrysia melanorrhoa SALVIN 1865 (and as such it doesn't have a Swedish Common name)] • • • • .... as well as several other taxa (mostly flowers)This far, I tend to believe his full year still ought to be; "1807–1885" (exactly as it was earlier, in Jobling's Helm Dictionary of Scientific Bird names (2010), as well as in most other earlier books of reference, also in the dear old  (now defunct) HBW Alive Key, up until the 11th of November 2019 (my bold blue):The day after (12th Nov. 2019) the HBW Alive Key was updated into:... and it remained as such all the way until the Key was sadly shut down in May this year.Though, I simply don't buy it, I think this is wrong (and I know that I´m on thin ice now, in dealing with Spanish texts, not understanding much of it) ...But I still think that "our guy" the naturalist Don Carmiol (Senior) passed away in San José, Costa Rica, on the 6th of October 1885 ("... a los 78 años"/at the age of 78), as claimed by Francisco Carmiol Calvo (in 1973), see post #13. Though I agree that there could, might be some reasons for questioning the conclusion of his age; ... a los 78 años", at that point. But, let's wait with that part, first; let's focus on when (and where) he died. To me it all looks like he actually died in that certain year (i.e. 1885).How sure are we (as in 'dead-certain') of the "new" claim that "Don Carmiol" truly died in "1895" ("11 November 1895", at "Candelaria, Palmares, Alajuela, Costa Rica")? Isn't that simply a mix-up with "Julián Carmiol" (junior, a k a "Julio"), Don Julián Carmiol's second oldest (or oldest surviving) Son (1837–1895, who is claimed to have died on the exact same day, in "Naranjo, Alajuela, Costa Rica) ... !?!In most other cases when years have been in doubt, we (usually) haven't had different years, different Months, and different days!? And at (somewhat) different locations? Which we do seem to have in this case! [and yes, I know that Alajuela is (fairly) close to San José]. Either way; to me, it does look like this must be some kind of confusion ... wouldn't it be odd (at least fairly unlikely) that both Father and Son, Don "Julián Carmiol" (Senior) and his Son Julián/Julio Carmiol (Junior) both died on the exact same day ... !?! Of course, they could both have died in an accident/natural catastrophe, maybe their house collapsed over their heads, or a land-slide, earth-quake, etc., but even if so, would such an accident have passed all un-noticed, wouldn't such a tragic coincidence have resulted in some kind of remark, in some text, in some print, somewhere? In my mind it sounds a bit far-fetched.Also note that the FamilySearch page for Don Carmiol ("Christian Friedrich Julius Carnigohl ...") <a href="https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/MV93-35V/christian-friedrich-julius-carnigohl-grassnick-1817-1895" target="_blank">here</a>, has been updated since we last looked at it, (in late 2019). Now it shows the same picture that Rafael proudly presented to us all in post #19 (of the "happy couple", at that point claimed to be a photo of Julius and his First wife Augusta), but today it's inserted in the entries for his children (7? earlier they/there were 6), i.e. in the entry for (as a portrait of) his Son (Carl Christian Conrad Julius) ... :eek!: Either way; also consider the text/piece (by Carmiol Calvo, 1973, on p.38): In my mind, a Post mortem presentation, in 1886, talks strongly in favour of the Death year 1885.Also note Polakowsky's remark (from 1889) regarding La Flora de Costa Rica, en Anales del Instituto Físico-Geográfico Nacional, Tomo 2e, pág. 177 (<a href="https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044041962911&view=1up&seq=151&size=125&q1=Carmiol" target="_blank">here</a>) which (helped by Google translate tells us: "the Central American Biology has not made any mention of the name of Carmiol, who ... died in 1885". A text hard to write in 1889, if Don Carmiol died in 1895, don't you think?A similar phrase is found in <a href="http://memoriacentroamericana.ihnca.edu.ni/uploads/media/Historia_de_la_influencia_extranjera_CR.pdf" target="_blank">this</a> book, from 1921/22, here, p.83-85 (all in Spanish): Or see the Paper La Flora de Costa Rica itself, by Polakowsky himself, in the Journal Anales del Instituto Fisico-Geografico Nacional (de San José de Costa Rica), from 1889, where we <a href="http://sinabi.go.cr/biblioteca%20digital/revistas/anales%20del%20instituto%20fisico%20geografico/anales%20del%20instituto%20fisico%20geografico%201889/c-Anales%20del%20Instituto%20Fisico-Geografico%20Nacional%201889%20T3%202%20Parte.pdf" target="_blank">here</a> (but beware, it's a large file, takes a while to download/open), on p.177, find the following short note (my blue): I strongly doubt that Polakowsky would have added those crosses if he hadn't any good support/proof/reason for doing so.This far I will stick to the years we had for Don Carmiol (Senior), the ones we had at the very beginning of this thread; "1807–1885". I feel pretty certain, at least on the latter (of his Death) ...However, and as always: don't hesitate to convince me otherwise!BjörnPS. Though I fully agree with Rafael's remark (in post #22) that Don Carmiol never truly were an "immigrant to Nicaragua 1853", the Family only arrived there, shortly, in December 1853, on their way to Costa Rica (where they arrived in January -54). From the very start of their trip their aim was to reach the latter country. Nicaragua was just a port, a place of transit, the closest/easiest way to reach the Promised land ...PPS. To me it looks like Brother Julius/Julio/Julián (1837–1895) had a family of his own, in Naranjo, Alajuela (<a href="https://www.myheritage.se/names/mar%C3%ADa_carmiol%20corrales" target="_blank">here</a>).--</blockquote>

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