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Carrion Crow or Raven please - Horwich Moor, Greater Manchester UK (1 Viewer)

Earnest lad

Well-known member
Please may I request help with the bird in the attached pics.
 

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Butty

Well-known member
I wouldn't rule out it being a raven - or a crow. It has a nice graduated tail, but then I don't know what a crow's tail looks like from that angle. Do you have a particular reason for thinking it might be a raven? How did it call? Did you see its shape in flight?
 

Earnest lad

Well-known member
Thank you for your helpful appraisal. Unfortunately I missed it fly off while fiddling with the camera. I have never heard raven call but this called once and it vaguely seemed to sound different to that of a crow, which I have often heard.
 

Andy Strachan

Well-known member
Scotland
I've changed my mind on this a few times now. I first thought the rounded tail, neck feathers and bill size said Raven. Then I looked at Carrion Crow pictures... started doubting myself and thought It could still be carrion crow though. But I thought nah, bill and tail says Raven. Then I looked at Raven pictures I've taken, and the bill on those Raven's looks a good bit bigger than yours! But it could just be the angle... so really, I'm torn. I think I would edge towards Raven.
So we've all learnt the guy here with the Raven as his profile picture doesn't know what a Raven looks like :LOL:
 

pianoman

duck and diver, bobolink and weaver
For an all-black crow sp. Immature Rook is also in the mix (not saying it is one). They've fooled me before, because they still have a culmen on the bill and less shaggy trousers than adults.

Edit - or should that be a cere...
 

Prestdj

its good to be back
Ukraine
I'm struggling to find an image of a Carrion Crow whose feathers go as far down the bill - as others have said - so it's got to be a Raven.
im lucky to see ravens nearly daily flying over the house and and giving that spooky call they have which is great, they are buzzard sized so not small but a black bird in the sky flying or sat against the sky can be confusing

good find and here on birdforum a massive amount of knowledge is available
 

YuShan

hikingbirdman.com
United Kingdom
I'm in the raven camp too, but not sure if I would be confident enough to tick it as such in practice.

I still often struggle to separate big Carrion Crows from small Ravens. There seems to be quite a lot of variation in sizes of individuals.
 

Prestdj

its good to be back
Ukraine
I've changed my mind on this a few times now. I first thought the rounded tail, neck feathers and bill size said Raven. Then I looked at Carrion Crow pictures... started doubting myself and thought It could still be carrion crow though. But I thought nah, bill and tail says Raven. Then I looked at Raven pictures I've taken, and the bill on those Raven's looks a good bit bigger than yours! But it could just be the angle... so really, I'm torn. I think I would edge towards Raven.
So we've all learnt the guy here with the Raven as his profile picture doesn't know what a Raven looks like :LOL:
your profile pic the bill looks exactly the same heavy and strong
 

Butty

Well-known member
The OP's bird's bill looks so deep in part (perhaps wholly) because it's viewed here from below. This creates an incorrect illusion of greater thickness.
I thought the feathering on the bill made it an absolute Raven.
It's tempting to think of this as a good raven feature - but it's not. If you look through lots of (Macaulay) photos of raven and carrion crow you see quickly that the extent of bill-feathering/bristles is highly variable in both species, overlaps totally, and there is no obvious tendency for them to be longer in raven, or for raven to have the longest feathering. And you also see that the feathering is actually unusually long (for either species) in the OP's bird.
 

THE_FERN

Well-known member
Without certainty, I think this is a carrion crow. It's certainly not an adult raven. My reasons are: on adult ravens the horizontal hairs on the upper mandible tend to extend around 2/3rds of the way down the bill rather than less than half [here: viz Macauley images]. The bill of an adult raven is deeper and more parallel sided, especially the lower mandible [most obvious curve is around last third of upper mandible]. The bill here appears quite "delicate" [to me] and both mandibles converge smoothly to a point. I see little evidence of the raven's "beard" here. Finally, Macauley images suggest carrion crow wings often fall short of the tail tip, whereas raven's meet or exceed it. As far as I can tell, the OP image matches the first pattern.

These 2 can be really difficult without a clear size comparison as here. The posts above demonstrate this... ...Happy to be proved wrong...
 

Edwin Sapatsch

Well-known member
England
I can understand the mixed opinions ... a difficult one at that angle but I will lean towards Carrion crow
 

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