Cease Fox Hunt (1 Viewer)

[Edward woodwood]

and there's me thinking that hunting them was much more effective/efficient than shooting them

doh!

Tim

 

[saluki]

and there's me thinking that hunting them was much more effective/efficient than shooting them

doh!

Tim

Hi Tim,

No, I don't think anyone is suggesting that hunting is as effective as shooting (well, some might be, but I'm not!) in lowering the fox population Tim (although in some areas, such as the hills of Wales and the Lake District, it is the best method of control). But it is more selective. By it's very nature, hunting with hounds is more likely to kill weak or sickly foxes more often than it will healthy ones - bit like a hunting fox I suppose. Although they do, obviously, kill healthy prey, it is more likely that it's the weak and vunerable that will fall prey.

The problem I have with the situation the hunters have been forced into is that they are now using shotguns to kill the foxes. Foxes, in my opinion, are too big to kill with a shotgun. Even using large shot size such as SG's, the pellets are too small and travelling at too slow a velocity to kill a fox effectively unless at close range. But there is no alternative, other than giving up hunting completely. It isn't practical to shoot running foxes with a high powered centre fire .22 such as a 22/250 or a .223 - which are the chosen calibre of the fox killer. The one saving grace is that they have hounds to back them up, so if any fox is injured the hounds can kill it - but do the hunt then face prosecution? What a stupid situation!! Gun packs have always been very effective (expect the number of foxes killed to rise dramatically - as it has in Scotland - once they get used to the situation) at killing foxes, but they weren't under the restrictions this idiotic government has imposed on them.

Totally unrelated, but can anyone tell me why hunt sabs insist on wearing balaclavers or face masks? Shouldn't it be the hunt supporters, who may potentially be doing something illegal, that should be wearing them? Are hunt sabs ashamed of what they're doing? Why did The Sunday Times report that some were armed with pick axe handles? What gentle, peace loving creatures they are . . .

saluki

 

[Jos Stratford]

The only thing that has won with this ban are the misguided people who hearts may be in the right place but they now very little about the county side . Thank goodness there are people like saluki, moth man richard w and giilosborne who know the truth.

A recurring comment by some of those who are in favour of fox-hunters is that those who oppose this 'sport' know nothing or little about the countryside. Sorry to say, but that is more than a little arrogant, the fact that somebody opposes a bloodsport does not infer they know little about the countryside, it simply means they don't agree with the particular practise you support.

'Thank goodness there are people like ....' well, yes they have the same views as you Derek, but they certainly don't have the only knowledge when it comes to the vast topic of the countryside.

Personally, from what I have read of Saluki for example, I don't doubt he has a genuine knowledge of many aspects of countrylife, in some fields much deeper than mine, but by opposing the views he and others have on this subject, do you wish to suggest I know little about the countryside?

 

[saluki]

A recurring comment by some of those who are in favour of fox-hunters is that those who oppose this 'sport' know nothing or little about the countryside. Sorry to say, but that is more than a little arrogant, the fact that somebody opposes a bloodsport does not infer they know little about the countryside, it simply means they don't agree with the particular practise you support.

'Thank goodness there are people like ....' well, yes they have the same views as you Derek, but they certainly don't have the only knowledge when it comes to the vast topic of the countryside.

Personally, from what I have read of Saluki for example, I don't doubt he has a genuine knowledge of many aspects of countrylife, in some fields much deeper than mine, but by opposing the views he and others have on this subject, do you wish to suggest I know little about the countryside?

Hi Jos,

I'm sure your knowledge of the countryside is equal, if not greater than mine. But what you don't have (I'm pressuming this Jos, tell me if I'm wrong) is any experience in killing animals, so it's difficult for you to tell me what is the most humane method to control foxes - wouldn't you agree Jos? If you wanted to know why your car was making an odd noise, who would you ask - a mechanic or a doctor? On the surface, hunting with hounds may look barbaric, but as I keep saying, I've never seen a fox injured by hounds/dogs. I have, however seen many foxes, shot by 'expert marksmen' wounded. Even worse are the foxes shot on shoot days by often inexperienced hunters using undersized shot meant for killing pheasant. Many shoots ban the shooting of foxes on shoot days - they often ban the shooting of all ground game for safety reasons - but many do not. If people wanted to stop cruelty to foxes, they would be far better off campaigning to ban the shooting of foxes with small shot, rather than banning hunting. Half the foxes killed have old wounds from shotgun pellets in them.

Tearing a dead fox apart isn't cruel, however you look at it - no more cruel than butchering a carcass, or even carving the Sunday roast! Dead animals feel no pain. I know this seems obvious, but it's a point that many people can't seem to see beyond. Otis Ferry, last weekend, placed a fox that had been shot in an earth by the terrierman, on the ground and allowed the hounds to break it up. Looked nasty - but was it cruel?

saluki

 

[Richard W]

Otis Ferry, last weekend, placed a fox that had been shot in an earth by the terrierman, on the ground and allowed the hounds to break it up. Looked nasty - but was it cruel?

not cruel no, but it's that sort of practice that has led to the ban being successful....

I wouldn't say there's a lack of knowledge of the countryside on the part of the anti hunting supporters, but think there is a lack of knowledge of what goes on at a shooting estate & farm, that's certainly my experience.

Many people I've met who were quite happy to say they were against bloodsports when they knew their hosts hunt went away from one of our open evenings with a different view, hopefully more balanced, there was certainly no animosity.

I would say most knew very little about shooting & pest control, probably because what they actually see is the hunt/hounds or a trailer full of tweed, gun dogs & shotguns

 

[saluki]

not cruel no, but it's that sort of practice that has led to the ban being successful....

I wouldn't say there's a lack of knowledge of the countryside on the part of the anti hunting supporters, but think there is a lack of knowledge of what goes on at a shooting estate & farm, that's certainly my experience.

Many people I've met who were quite happy to say they were against bloodsports when they knew their hosts hunt went away from one of our open evenings with a different view, hopefully more balanced, there was certainly no animosity.

I would say most knew very little about shooting & pest control, probably because what they actually see is the hunt/hounds or a trailer full of tweed, gun dogs & shotguns

Hi Richard,


I think you're probably right Richard, but to ban something simply because it looks bad is surely wrong.

Some years ago I used to post on the Labour Animal Wefare forum who's membership was mostly made up of animal rights activisits. I'll be honest, I couldn't believe how uninformed they were about natural history and the countryside in general. The reason I started to post initially was to correct the 'moderator' on something he said. He suggested that the reason foxes killed chickens was because, hundreds of years ago chickens were wild in the UK! I found it incredible that they where so vehement in their hatred of hunting but couldn't be bothered to find anything at all out about the creatures they claimed to love. For instance, they all hated hare coursing, but hardly any of them had ever seen a hare!

Only this week there was a letter in the Times, from a man who signed himself 'Member of the British Brown Hare Preservation Society'. If he was, then he should take a little time to research his subject a little more thorougly! He firstly suggested that any hares not caught would die anyway as they had been transported off their home ground. The hares for any hare coursing meet aren't transported anywhere, they are either driven (by beaters- perhaps the word 'driven threw him!) or walked up - they aren't released in front of the dogs. Next he suggested if a hare managed to escape it would die from the exertion of the chase. Absolute nonsense! A fit hare can easily outrun any greyhound ever born, not in speed but in stamina. So if the hare dies, why don't the dogs? As I've said in a previous post, the only dog that can run a hare into the ground is a Saluki, with courses lasting up to ten minutes - greyhounds burn out after 60 seconds.

There's an awful lot of nonsense spoken about hunting (from both sides if I'm honest). I'm not here to neccessarily try to change anyone's opinion, but no-one can possibly make up their minds on a subject when people are so misinformed.

saluki

 

[mothman]

I have to say if the argument that Foxes were only kept alive for the benefit of being hunted for sport has even a iota of truth, then the whole thing is even sicker!

I am a little more proud to be British as a result of the ban.

Well Jane i'm afraid it is true! Yep i agree i'ts sick, but would you rather this, or virtually no foxes at all because if your choice is the latter then congratulations you've won!
I did not foxhunt, in fact I actually abhor the idea personally, but I like watching foxes more than I hate hunting. and am heartbroken by the wholesale destruction that I am now seeing, and hearing of since the ban, please dont shoot the messanger, I'm only telling it as it is, can you think of an alternative choice? cos I've wracked my brains and i,m buggered if I can
Colin.

 

[StuartReeves]

There's an awful lot of nonsense spoken about hunting (from both sides if I'm honest). I'm not here to neccessarily try to change anyone's opinion, but no-one can possibly make up their minds on a subject when people are so misinformed.

saluki

By and large I agree with Jane's view that I'm a little more proud to be British now that the ban is in place. However, I would have been more proud if the public debate had been as informed and reasonable as Saluki's posts on this thread instead of the slanging match it became.

Stuart

 

[scampo]

By and large I agree with Jane's view that I'm a little more proud to be British now that the ban is in place. However, I would have been more proud if the public debate had been as informed and reasonable as Saluki's posts on this thread instead of the slanging match it became.

Stuart

Here, here! Well done Saluki!

 

[Jane Turner]

Well Jane i'm afraid it is true! Yep i agree i'ts sick, but would you rather this, or virtually no foxes at all because if your choice is the latter then congratulations you've won!
I did not foxhunt, in fact I actually abhor the idea personally, but I like watching foxes more than I hate hunting. and am heartbroken by the wholesale destruction that I am now seeing, and hearing of since the ban, please dont shoot the messanger, I'm only telling it as it is, can you think of an alternative choice? cos I've wracked my brains and i,m buggered if I can
Colin.

You can always come and watch the ones that I have breeding in land next to my garden. No hunt or shotgun will get to them.

 

[tracker]

I too have to say, having been following this discussion, i feel moved to add my admiration and respect for the very calm and insightful way in which Saluki has offered his side of this very emotive issue. I can see he has a very deep well of experience in this subject and its been quite refreshing listening to how he has communicated it! Very well done Saluki..... :t:
Tom

 

[Edward woodwood]

i can think about this till the cows come home but i always come back to why anyone would WANT to hunt hares or foxes with dogs - it is beyond me. Thank goodness we are evolving. Things are getting better....slowly

Tim

 

[StevieEvans]

Tim, Then why criticise what you cant understand ?
Steve.

 

[scampo]

...Thank goodness we are evolving.
Tim

Evolving? I'd say "changing", myself, Tim. But optimism is good for the soul.

(-;

 

[Edward woodwood]

Tim, Then why criticise what you cant understand ?
Steve.

semantics Steve

everyone knows what i mean

Tim

 

[Anthony Morton]

Germaine Greer

Did anyone else see the half hour television programme about hunting hosted by Germaine Greer a couple of weeks ago? Contrary to my expectations, she gave a refreshingly unbiased account of both sides views and opinions. One statistic which emerged was that hunting with hounds only ever accounted for 1 in 16 of all foxes killed. Although Ms. Greer did not indicate her source for this figure, or offer any further statistics, presumably the other 15 are all victimes of either shooting, snaring, road traffic accidents or poisoning.

My own opinion, based on what I've seen and read, is that many antis are not so much against hunting per se but are vehemently opposed to the fact that those who ride to hounds appear to be enjoying themselves.

Anthony

 

[Benjismum]

My own opinion, based on what I've seen and read, is that many antis are not so much against hunting per se but are vehemently opposed to the fact that those who ride to hounds appear to be enjoying themselves.

Anthony

:clap:

Spot on Anthony!

 

[Edward woodwood]

wouldn't disagree Anthony

I don't like the fact that people take pleasure from hunting/killing hares, foxes etc

if a group of children treated an animal likewise say a swan or a cat they would be castigated as yobs. But because it's legal (ooops pardon me, ha ha) to do it to a fox or hare it's somehow a diffrent value system employed.

I don't like the red-coated brigade who never kicked up a fuss about vast swathes of the country being kicked onto the dole, or during the miners' strike etc when the law had to be upheld whatever the cost etc.... I do just find them rather distateful people, (while acknowledging that many hunt supporters are not 'stuck up toffs in red coats) it does remind of the pastor niemoller quote 'when they came for me there was no-one left to help me' If they hadn't been so odious in the past they might have abit more support now - from people like me for example.

and there is a large amount of schardenfreude (sorry bout spelling) in their predicament for me!

good!

Tim

 

[Benjismum]

I don't like the fact that people take pleasure from hunting/killing hares, foxes etc

if a group of children treated an animal likewise say a swan or a cat they would be castigated as yobs. But because it's legal (ooops pardon me, ha ha) to do it to a fox or hare it's somehow a diffrent value system employed.

I don't like the red-coated brigade who never kicked up a fuss about vast swathes of the country being kicked onto the dole, or during the miners' strike etc when the law had to be upheld whatever the cost etc.... I do just find them rather distateful people, (while acknowledging that many hunt supporters are not 'stuck up toffs in red coats) it does remind of the pastor niemoller quote 'when they came for me there was no-one left to help me' If they hadn't been so odious in the past they might have abit more support now - from people like me for example.

and there is a large amount of schardenfreude (sorry bout spelling) in their predicament for me!

good!

Tim

So you don't mind foxes being hunted and killed then Tim, so long as it's not done by 'toffs in red coats', or those who didn't support the miners? :h?:

 

[Richard W]

evolving? would like to see some of that here

the red coated toffs are it seems to me law abiding people (until a few weeks ago), they were only doing what landowners were happy for them to do on private land.

if I were to get really annoyed about things in this village, it would be the obscene graffiti that the little hooded half wits scribled all over the new bus shelter, a bus shelter that mums and their kids have to walk past to get to school every morning.

I would like to take a sander to it and clean it up so my own daughter doesn't have to see it but not allowed (criminal damage), but it's only been there a month, no harm done :clap:

they've been making many peoples lives a misery for a long time (breaking into houses, cars, local shop), and despite plenty of existing laws apparently they can keep doing it.... :clap:

not to mention the poor state of the roads, speeding, rubbish being dumped, etc etc.

but something like hunting which is far more immotive is a vote winner, better to say it'll be banned twice just before two elections (me cynical?) and be seen to "stick it to the toffs", than actually do something practical which would benefit the whole community