Changes in how Ebird treats non-natives (3 Viewers)

[Kirk Roth]

I've noticed many inconsistencies in how different exotics are handled and even many native species being listed as escapees and vice versa. I know some eBird reviewers have even left the site because of these policies already - I do hope that eBird gets their act together soon, and I recommend contacting eBird if you are concerned. I may if I notice too many more things.

Please post details - after nearly a year of species status review including input from reviewers, the finding of native species being listed as escapees is shocking, let along "many." Please state which species and locations you have found with these errors.

 

[THE_FERN]

2) You mentioned the Tower of London birds

A joke, referencing the fabulation that the country will fall if the birds leave the Tower of London. Rainham's quite some distance from the Tower—around 16 miles away.

 

[Paul Chapman]

A couple of eBird checklists with the Tower of London birds. Not many.

"eBird Checklist - 25 Jul 1978 - (England London) Tower of London - 1 species" https://ebird.org/checklist/S8636480

I know the pain of reviewers with wildfowl collections in their areas. I suspect St James's Park brings similar pain...

All the best

Paul

 

[raymie]

Please post details - after nearly a year of species status review including input from reviewers, the finding of native species being listed as escapees is shocking, let along "many." Please state which species and locations you have found with these errors.

Lots of times where vagrants should probably be provisional (eg. Red Warbler) are listed as escapee. For some reason all bobwhites in Arizona carry the same listing despite being a native species there.

 

[Kirk Roth]

Lots of times where vagrants should probably be provisional (eg. Red Warbler) are listed as escapee. For some reason all bobwhites in Arizona carry the same listing despite being a native species there.

The 2018 Red Warbler was unanimously considered an escaped exotic by the Arizona RBC, and the ABA and presumably eBird have followed suit on that decision. There isn't much information about this out there, but it is summarized in an ABA report: https://www.birdpop.org/docs/pubs/Pyle_et_al_2018_29th_Report_of_the_ABA_Checklist_Committee.pdf

The only bobwhites native to Arizona are the Masked subspecies, and those I believe are currently restricted to the reintroduced population in Buenos Aires NWR. All "eastern" types would be escapees from hunting stock. The eBird policy on reintroduced species and how that is represented seems not to be solidified just yet. I don't know the current wisdom on how "established" these quail are at Buenos Aires, but my expectation is to agree that after such a long time they would be at least provisional if they are breeding in the wild (and if not, why is this program still going?!?!)

I think an even odder example is the status of reintroduced Whooping Cranes in the eastern U.S. It is predominantly labeled as native, but peppered with "exotic" marks on the range map. These crane population are certainly a headache to classify, with different state committees having different opinions on whether they are established or not (wild breeding has been slight in some of the eastern populations), and also differing opinions on how sensitive the populations are to reports. Some of the reintroduced populations failed. Certainly a complicated situation, but I agree that some work is in order to get these looking right.

In contrast, California Condors, which are entirely reintroduced populations since the 1990s, are entirely "wild" status.

 

[THE_FERN]

In contrast, California Condors, which are entirely reintroduced populations since the 1990s, are entirely "wild" status.

Suggest this is broadly a pointless exercise. Unless ebird is going to pronounce on every single red kite (UK) or whooping crane (US)...

Surely if something was native, then just label it as such even if it's the product of reintroduction. Where you have different subspecies (masked bobwhite) again, lots of luck. If these native forms don't interbreed with the game birds then they're not the same species in my book. Now is one expeced to carefully DNA-profile each bird to work out its origins? Clearly nonsense.

As I noted before, any distribution records of any species—introduced or not—is equally interesting from a scientific point of view. Labelling things as exotics is likely to disincentivise recording them

 

[Mysticete]

Suggest this is broadly a pointless exercise. Unless ebird is going to pronounce on every single red kite (UK) or whooping crane (US)...

Surely if something was native, then just label it as such even if it's the product of reintroduction. Where you have different subspecies (masked bobwhite) again, lots of luck. If these native forms don't interbreed with the game birds then they're not the same species in my book. Now is one expeced to carefully DNA-profile each bird to work out its origins? Clearly nonsense.

As I noted before, any distribution records of any species—introduced or not—is equally interesting from a scientific point of view. Labelling things as exotics is likely to disincentivise recording them

The Masked Bobwhite and the Eastern Bobwhite are presumably not in the same area. Eastern Bobwhite in AZ are presumably game farm escapees/releases, and from what I know about the reintroduction site for the Masked Bobwhite, it would be extremely unlikely that anyone would be releasing Eastern Bobwhite out there.

I would think it would be possible to have some sort of filter where Bobwhite outside of the very small area show up as escapees, or set it up so that folks who enter the Masked Bobwhite Subspecies group would be flagged as native.

At any rate, I doubt any birders are going to log Masked Bobwhite anytime soon for the ABA, outside of those folks involved in the reintroduction. They are kind of out in the middle of nowhere and the population still isn't self-supporting AFAIK, so small in number.

 

[THE_FERN]

The Masked Bobwhite and the Eastern Bobwhite are presumably not in the same area. Eastern Bobwhite in AZ are presumably game farm escapees/releases, and from what I know about the reintroduction site for the Masked Bobwhite, it would be extremely unlikely that anyone would be releasing Eastern Bobwhite out there.

I would think it would be possible to have some sort of filter where Bobwhite outside of the very small area show up as escapees, or set it up so that folks who enter the Masked Bobwhite Subspecies group would be flagged as native.

At any rate, I doubt any birders are going to log Masked Bobwhite anytime soon for the ABA, outside of those folks involved in the reintroduction. They are kind of out in the middle of nowhere and the population still isn't self-supporting AFAIK, so small in number.

Well regardless of the bobwhite specifics, the general argument must surely be clear.

Just looked at the mute swan map. It reckons the entire UK population is exotic. I don't think I've read any evidence of this so keen to know what there might be. (It also has Italian and Portuguese populations as introduced but not the nearby Spanish birds. Presumably, they've not heard of Schengen and are still rigorously respecting national borders. It's clear that a mute swan in Portugal cannot possibly be a genuine wild immigrant: absolutely biologically impossible---it's not as if birds fly !)

 

[raymie]

The Masked Bobwhite and the Eastern Bobwhite are presumably not in the same area. Eastern Bobwhite in AZ are presumably game farm escapees/releases, and from what I know about the reintroduction site for the Masked Bobwhite, it would be extremely unlikely that anyone would be releasing Eastern Bobwhite out there.

I would think it would be possible to have some sort of filter where Bobwhite outside of the very small area show up as escapees, or set it up so that folks who enter the Masked Bobwhite Subspecies group would be flagged as native.

At any rate, I doubt any birders are going to log Masked Bobwhite anytime soon for the ABA, outside of those folks involved in the reintroduction. They are kind of out in the middle of nowhere and the population still isn't self-supporting AFAIK, so small in number.

I found several records of Masked Bobwhite around the reintroduction area flagged as exotic.

The reintroduction team actually is releasing male Eastern Bobwhites along with the Masked so they can teach them how to survive.

 

[lgonz1008]

Well regardless of the bobwhite specifics, the general argument must surely be clear.

Just looked at the mute swan map. It reckons the entire UK population is exotic. I don't think I've read any evidence of this so keen to know what there might be. (It also has Italian and Portuguese populations as introduced but not the nearby Spanish birds. Presumably, they've not heard of Schengen and are still rigorously respecting national borders. It's clear that a mute swan in Portugal cannot possibly be a genuine wild immigrant: absolutely biologically impossible---it's not as if birds fly !)

It might take a while before the process is properly tuned and my guess is that outside of Europe, most of the exotics to native argument is effective.

Another example that made me wonder the same as you did with the Mute Swan, is how every Rock Pigeon in the UK and most parts of Europe are considered natives even though most plazas in these countries clearly have feral populations that have no breeding links with the cliff nesters of the region.

Or how Common Myna is clearly an exotic depending on which side of the Persian Gulf it's being reported, if it's Iran, they are all wild birds but if you see on in Kuwait, Qatar or UAE, then you clearly have an exotic absolutely no chance of it being a wind-blown bird; yet the reports of this species in Cyprus and Italy at clearly wild birds.

Overall, this is a great step in the right direction for many birders that like to count exotics but are not sure of their status (like the dozen or so species of parakeets in South Florida), but overall it needs some fine tuning if the data will be used for conservation studies and population trend data in the future, especially for the messy to tell apart exotics.

 

[THE_FERN]

It might take a while before the process is properly tuned and my guess is that outside of Europe, most of the exotics to native argument is effective.

Another example that made me wonder the same as you did with the Mute Swan, is how every Rock Pigeon in the UK and most parts of Europe are considered natives even though most plazas in these countries clearly have feral populations that have no breeding links with the cliff nesters of the region.

Or how Common Myna is clearly an exotic depending on which side of the Persian Gulf it's being reported, if it's Iran, they are all wild birds but if you see on in Kuwait, Qatar or UAE, then you clearly have an exotic absolutely no chance of it being a wind-blown bird; yet the reports of this species in Cyprus and Italy at clearly wild birds.

Overall, this is a great step in the right direction for many birders that like to count exotics but are not sure of their status (like the dozen or so species of parakeets in South Florida), but overall it needs some fine tuning if the data will be used for conservation studies and population trend data in the future, especially for the messy to tell apart exotics.

no breeding links with the cliff nesters of the region.

Not true. They interbreed where they come into contact... ...And how would anyone know?
Even if you were able to DNA test the birds using sufficiently discriminatory probes (SNPs or somesuch) I doubt that you'd find systematic differences. These are the same species...

great step in the right direction ...but are not sure of their status

I know enough to know that all the parakeets in Florida are introduced: don't need ebird to tell me that...

Where we have a species with a mix of natural and introduced individuals or populations (like mute swan, red kite, many ferruginous ducks in UK etc), then no-one, certainly not ebird, will be able to help. National rarity committees pronounce and decide whether a bird is "kosher", but I would only accept their decisions if I agreed with their reasoning. They cannot "know". Ultimately, if the animal is indistinguishable from the native form it doesn't matter to the ecology. Where it is distinguishable (parakeets) it's usually obviously an introduction. At what point an "introduction" becomes "native" ? (Before or after the last ice age? Is 17th century long enough ago for canada geese to be considered "native"? Is mode of introduction important—cattle egrets in UK =OK (but ultimately due to agricultural practices by man elsewhere), but canada geese =not?) This is clearly a moot, subjective point. Faunas are constantly evolving...

From the point of view of monitoring and science, all individual birds are equally valid. Because of the obsession with "natural purity", labelling species as exotic or introduced means birders are less likely to monitor them properly. We can see this false distinction because house sparrow is apparently native to the UK—but it's only here because we are (i.e. in some sense not different to canada geese).

 

[THE_FERN]

Phew ! just seen that all the red kites in the UK are native. All those I saw over the M40 must have come specially for me from central Wales, then.

 

[lgonz1008]

I know enough to know that all the parakeets in Florida are introduced: don't need ebird to tell me that...

For the parakeets I meant more the distinction between escapees (Budgerigars and Scarlet-fronted), provisional (Red-masked and White-eyed) and established (Monk and Mitred).

Not sure if you count the introduced species, but for those who do, the distinction matters a good bit.

 

[THE_FERN]

For the parakeets I meant more the distinction between escapees (Budgerigars and Scarlet-fronted), provisional (Red-masked and White-eyed) and established (Monk and Mitred).

Not sure if you count the introduced species, but for those who do, the distinction matters a good bit.

But it's completely arbitrary and subjective. Are escapees only ever single birds, and if so "single" with respect to what geographical area? Otherwise, how do they differ from "provisional" or "established"? Do the birds have to have survived a set number of seasons or bred in the wild? At what point does provisional become established? Why, and what difference does it make to the biology?

...I still remember the Chilean flamingo at Cliffe near London. afaik, this was there for several years. It was clearly either provisional or maybe even established...

Presumably lady amherst's pheasant was established in UK. "Was" because it's extinct now afaik.

 

[Kirk Roth]

I found several records of Masked Bobwhite around the reintroduction area flagged as exotic.

The reintroduction team actually is releasing male Eastern Bobwhites along with the Masked so they can teach them how to survive.

This by itself is a good indication that "Escapee" is the appropriate category and makes more sense of the status.

 

[raymie]

I noticing more and more problems with this system everyday - for example, there's a lot of places where native/introduced just seems to match arbitrary human borders - for example, Wild Turkey is apparently native in most of the US but introduced in Canada. Also, what's with all the "introduced" Whooping Crane sightings?

 

[Maffong]

I'm not sure why you think that you're finding more and more 'problems' everyday. To me the system looks very good and one can see that a lot of thought was put into it.
Both the Wild Turkey and the Whooping Cranes can easily be explained through the extensive reintroduction programmes that have taken place. While there may be some incongruities, I guess these maps are the best one can hope for in such abundant species where wild and reintroduced birds surely intermingle to a huge degree...
Personally, I am extremely happy with the changes to ebird. What annoys me though is how that has affected birdsoftheworld. Every species that has ever been recorded in a country, including some very dodgy ferals, are now counted towards the country list. I hope that will be fixed soon

 

[Mysticete]

I mean, is it really any more arbitrary than reporting a bird on Sept 29 that gets flagged as rare, versus reporting it on Oct 1st and it being A okay?

The way ebird is set up, you kind of just get stuck with some sharp boundaries, whereas there is a lot of "fuzziness" to bird occurrences. I have no idea how you get around that, other than using some sort of Bayesian system which takes in account surrounding areas and reports to assign status to a bird or sighting. Which I am guessing would require a huge overhaul of the system.

 

[raymie]

I mean, is it really any more arbitrary than reporting a bird on Sept 29 that gets flagged as rare, versus reporting it on Oct 1st and it being A okay?

The way ebird is set up, you kind of just get stuck with some sharp boundaries, whereas there is a lot of "fuzziness" to bird occurrences. I have no idea how you get around that, other than using some sort of Bayesian system which takes in account surrounding areas and reports to assign status to a bird or sighting. Which I am guessing would require a huge overhaul of the system.

Perhaps, I suppose, but I feel like these two situations not comparable. A species being marked as rare doesn't really affect too much - a user should easily be able to write up some notes and submit a photo to explain their sighting.

I'm not sure why you think that you're finding more and more 'problems' everyday. To me the system looks very good and one can see that a lot of thought was put into it.
Both the Wild Turkey and the Whooping Cranes can easily be explained through the extensive reintroduction programmes that have taken place. While there may be some incongruities, I guess these maps are the best one can hope for in such abundant species where wild and reintroduced birds surely intermingle to a huge degree...
Personally, I am extremely happy with the changes to ebird. What annoys me though is how that has affected birdsoftheworld. Every species that has ever been recorded in a country, including some very dodgy ferals, are now counted towards the country list. I hope that will be fixed soon

The problem with Whooping Cranes is the inconsistencies here - I hate that this system is being applied to native species. The same individual birds are being considered escapees are natural occurrences under their own power - this system should only be applied to species that are legitimately introduced - not reintroductions.

 

[01101001]

I do hope that eBird gets their act together soon, and I recommend contacting eBird if you are concerned. I may if I notice too many more things.

Is there any way of contacting eBird other than the form on the website? To date, I've tried contacting them about two issues.

First, about a glitch regarding checklist management. I submitted a question, and I got an answer stating:

Thank you for reaching out about eBird. Based on the contents of your message, it seems that you're writing in about the eBird Mobile app. [no]
[blah blah blah]
If your question is not answered by the resources above, please respond to this email. ...

So, I replied, and, amazingly, they answered ten seconds later. The reply was:

Thank you for reaching out about eBird. Based on the contents of your message, it seems that... [etc., etc.]

The other day, I tried to reach out to report a hotspot named against the naming conventions. The answer I got reads:

Thank you for contacting eBird. This is an automated response, but a real human will read your message. Because of the high volume of inquiries we receive, it may take several days or more before you receive a reply. ...

Since then, it's been four months and counting.

And there would be many other things to let them know if only they would listen like captive domestic peafowl that should never be reported in the first place marked as wild, Gallinula chloropus being once called 'Common Moorhen' and another time 'Eurasian Moorhen', multiple dodgy records of wild, not feral, rock doves from Belarus and Russia (including from Minsk, St Petersburg and Moscow) together with some 100 percent legitimate records left unconfirmed (like this mallard or any other record from this checklist including this blackcap (a first record for the country in question that didn't manage to get through the review process; interesting to think how many more well-documented rarities don't make it))--both probably due to a dramatic lack of reviewers in the some Eastern countries. What is more, some Polish hotspots are situated on private land and not marked as such in spite of their owners clearly willing to make it known.

As to the new functionality, apart from the problem with the status of pigeons (wild vs naturalized) that affected the whole world, Poland used to be the only European country having a native northern cardinal for some time (it was marked as exotic in the hotspot, but it was displayed as native on the map). Thankfully, both issues have now been solved.