China Birding Notes (1 Viewer)

[mjgrunwell]

Jiuzhaigou trip report

Dear Craig

I think your thread probably the best place to post this. The Sichuan birding thread has over 900 posts but almost no useful, precise information, just self-aggrandising blurb such as

"Just returned from a fantastic trip with Xhundred species seen, fantastic views of XYZ and found a really good site for ABC.

Yes, and........

GPS? where to park? where to walk? Precise location? Costs involved?

Rather than sully what is clearly an advertising channel for commercial purposes with hard gen I will post my 18 page report here.

It will also be uploaded on Cloudbirders

Enjoy

 

[Jon Gallagher]

Great report Michael! Really useful for independent birders like myself, so many thanks!

 

[McMadd]

Dear Craig

I think your thread probably the best place to post this. The Sichuan birding thread has over 900 posts but almost no useful, precise information, just self-aggrandising blurb such as

"Just returned from a fantastic trip with Xhundred species seen, fantastic views of XYZ and found a really good site for ABC.

Yes, and........

GPS? where to park? where to walk? Precise location? Costs involved?

Rather than sully what is clearly an advertising channel for commercial purposes with hard gen I will post my 18 page report here.

It will also be uploaded on Cloudbirders

Enjoy

Que? You expect Sid to be any different to any other bird tour leader who earn a living from guiding? Why would he give precise location details away for free? How would he feed his family then? Get real!

As for self aggrandising...well you're in the right place here sunshine...

McM

 

[mjgrunwell]

Birding v commercial guiding

Dear McM

I agree completely with you, the point is we have to make a distinction between a birding forum, where a free exchange of information is made and a commercial advertisement.

I do not expect a professional bird guide to share information on a bird forum but neither do I think birdforum.net is an appropriate place for commercial blurb, stuff about "Xhundred species seen" is best posted on a commercial website.

Personally, I will never use a guide if I cannot freely post gen, I have not yet seen my local BC laughers and indeed may never see them on principle. If I cannot tell others where I saw a bird I will not go see it. (I may get round this by not posting the precise gen but having it ready to email to bone fida birders. What is a bone fida birder? Well if you are Chinese you can start by posting your China list on Bubo, if you are western and I don't know you, you can point me at your world list/British/US list on Bubo, if you can't be bothered to post your list on Bubo then you are not a serious lister, and therefore are probably not bothered about precise gen anyway.)

I would like to have a thread which is 100pct hard gen, every post would contain specific detail of location, how to access, cost, modes of transport etc.

I would also like to start a thread on "Endemic birds of China" where people post specific gen on individual species.


I must explain that I have always been a militantly free-access-for-all lister, Birding for me is a) birding and b) sharing info so others can enjoy birding as much as I do.

In 5 years I would like to put together a document detailing precisely how to see every single Chinese Endemic, with caveats for those species susceptible to trapping.

What do others think?

 

[Jeff Hopkins]

Kind of a Chinese version of the ABA "Lane Guides." An intriguing prospect. But given the lack of true environmental protection in China along with the potential for exploiting the information by some, i'd be leery of creating such a volume.

As to your definition of a serious lister? It's a little over the top, IMO. And while I think your idea of including location gen with every post is notable I also think it's a bit idealistic.

And I personally have no problem with Sid or Craig posting useful information on available species and approximate locations, even if that does in some way constitute advertising. Only if it's blatant "Take my tour for only $300/day!!!" would I have a problem.

 

[mjgrunwell]

Birding in China is going nowhere : Discuss

Exactly 30 years ago I went on an independent birding trip to Peru, we faced Maoist insurrection and genuine danger but we had better gen on where to find birds in terms of trails, locales etc than China does in 2014.

China needs way more published articles on sites and species. It is ridiculous that over 95 pct of birding days in western China are unpublished and unavailable.

There seems to be a cheery clubbable atmosphere which stifles real gen.

One example, at the end of June I travelled to Labahe, I was completely unable to find any clear directions on the web to the entrance road or GPS of the ticket office, one of the best sites in China and we can't even be told where the front door is! Fortunately I had a driver who knew where to go and shortly I will produce a detailed map for others.

I do not agree that freedom of information damages commercial guiding, let us take Turkey as an example, all the sites are well known but still people pay big money for tours because most people who go on tours are not list-obsessed but just normal people who want a hassle-free trip. I published a report on sites around Istanbul 10 years ago, a few years ago I saw an advert for a bird tour going to the same places for an astronomical amount.

Another example is Sri Lanka, All the sites for all the endemics are well known, I recorded all the endemics in only 5 and a half days in 2011, and wrote a full report, it did wonders for my guide's business.

Other examples would be Florida, Arizona, Gambia and Majorca,
in all these cases there is loads of accurate, precise gen but a thriving tour industry.

As a final example, the UK has a thriving and profitable bird-tour business taking older people for genteel walks around well known sites, I am not aware that their business is being compromised by birdguides.com et al

Transport infrastructure in most of China is now first world, it is simply astonishing that I have to rely on a handful of trip reports to get the most basic gen about locations. A population of 1.4 billion and no simple clear website giving basic access instructions to the top 10 sites in western China!

I want every day's birding in China to be logged and accessible by all, yes I am idealistic but I want birding knowledge of China and Chinese birds to accelerate, we currently have a sclerotic situation where keen birders are waiting for crumbs to be thrown from the table of those "in the know"

Don't people have the right to keep their own hard-earned gen to themselves, in order to feed themselves?
Yes of course, but given the current nascent stage of birding in western China it is my view that the wider interests of birding are being handicapped by what amounts to something dangerously close to a racket.

I am about to go off to my summer retreat in a very rural Hungarian village with no internet access. Hopefully this will at least start a debate.

See you all back in China in August

 

[jlhammar]

Michael,

understand your fair and modern approach.

Personally, I see the situation a bit differently though. The massive challenge to get hold of proper birding gen in China just makes it so much cooler. Of course it may sometimes be a little bit frustrating and require long hours planning, strategizing, trying to get hold of people and information and then putting it all together to maximize chances of finding the target. But the reward of later succeeding in the field is then just sooo much bigger than if you simply rock up at a well known site with published co-ordinates and every little detail about where to easily find the bird.

An example. Between 2004-2010 a few friends and I made a series of failed attempts to find Blackthroat (we all know Per Alstrom then found it in 2011 and we later went to see it in 2012). One of them was when we hit Taibaishan in May 2005. The best (and only) information we had was exactly 100 years old...! We did not find any Blackthroats, but we were not too far off. And the whole thing of searching for something with information that is 100 years old is just unbeatable in itself. There is quite a lot of life mileage in that one.

I guess China is one of the few places left where these old-school challenges remain to some extent. Personally I see it as a bonus. And most people I have come across actually do share quite generously when asked...

Feel free to get in touch and I will be happy to help with the limited info I have at hand.

Cheers
Jocko
979

Exactly 30 years ago I went on an independent birding trip to Peru, we faced Maoist insurrection and genuine danger but we had better gen on where to find birds in terms of trails, locales etc than China does in 2014.

China needs way more published articles on sites and species. It is ridiculous that over 95 pct of birding days in western China are unpublished and unavailable.

There seems to be a cheery clubbable atmosphere which stifles real gen.

One example, at the end of June I travelled to Labahe, I was completely unable to find any clear directions on the web to the entrance road or GPS of the ticket office, one of the best sites in China and we can't even be told where the front door is! Fortunately I had a driver who knew where to go and shortly I will produce a detailed map for others.

I do not agree that freedom of information damages commercial guiding, let us take Turkey as an example, all the sites are well known but still people pay big money for tours because most people who go on tours are not list-obsessed but just normal people who want a hassle-free trip. I published a report on sites around Istanbul 10 years ago, a few years ago I saw an advert for a bird tour going to the same places for an astronomical amount.

Another example is Sri Lanka, All the sites for all the endemics are well known, I recorded all the endemics in only 5 and a half days in 2011, and wrote a full report, it did wonders for my guide's business.

Other examples would be Florida, Arizona, Gambia and Majorca,
in all these cases there is loads of accurate, precise gen but a thriving tour industry.

As a final example, the UK has a thriving and profitable bird-tour business taking older people for genteel walks around well known sites, I am not aware that their business is being compromised by birdguides.com et al

Transport infrastructure in most of China is now first world, it is simply astonishing that I have to rely on a handful of trip reports to get the most basic gen about locations. A population of 1.4 billion and no simple clear website giving basic access instructions to the top 10 sites in western China!

I want every day's birding in China to be logged and accessible by all, yes I am idealistic but I want birding knowledge of China and Chinese birds to accelerate, we currently have a sclerotic situation where keen birders are waiting for crumbs to be thrown from the table of those "in the know"

Don't people have the right to keep their own hard-earned gen to themselves, in order to feed themselves?
Yes of course, but given the current nascent stage of birding in western China it is my view that the wider interests of birding are being handicapped by what amounts to something dangerously close to a racket.

I am about to go off to my summer retreat in a very rural Hungarian village with no internet access. Hopefully this will at least start a debate.

See you all back in China in August

 

[McMadd]

do we have to do this on this thread? I hate CB, he hates me...regardless of that it's a distinct topic separate from his stuff

McM

Meaning he won't want me posting on here any more than I like posting

 

[Gretchen]

... given the lack of true environmental protection in Chin along with the potential for exploiting the information by some, i'd be leery of creating such a volume.
...
And I personally have no problem with Sid or Craig posting useful information on available species and approximate locations, even if that does in some way constitute advertising. Only if it's blatant "Take my tour for only $300/day!!!" would I have a problem.

I agree on both points.

In terms of freedom of information, context is important and the unbridled sharing of information does not work in every country equally well. It's important to know the situation and make wise decisions on sharing info. Sharing info is not just an issue of guides making money, but what other readers do with the information, i.e. the very real possibility of people going to a place to trap and sell endangered birds. Perhaps making other efforts such as educating local readers/birders/photgraphers would offset problems with sharing local info, but a person would need to commit time and effort to that. I guess too that many birders here would share more info in a private note than they will in a totally public forum.

I also think its quite reasonable for people to earn a living off of their day-in day-out hard work. What professionals want to share "for free" on a public forum is up to them. If what they write creates a hunger to buy something they have for sale, that's not surprising or problematic. However, I feel that their posts are increasing our understanding of birds and birding in China, and add to the general discussion here. As always, readers can ignore anything they don't find useful or worth their time.

 

[Gretchen]

do we have to do this on this thread? ... it's a distinct topic separate from CB's stuff

Yes, mods - a new thread would be great! Starting perhaps at post 324?

 

[johnjemi]

I think professionals like Sid cover an awful lot of ground, and it's asking a lot to expect them to map out all the highlights in minute detail. I enjoy his Sichuan Birding updates, and the details of which reserves are currently open - and the state of the roads to them are very important for anyone planning a trip.

 

[thrush]

I think professionals like Sid cover an awful lot of ground, and it's asking a lot to expect them to map out all the highlights in minute detail. I enjoy his Sichuan Birding updates, and the details of which reserves are currently open - and the state of the roads to them are very important for anyone planning a trip.

Sorry I didn't chime in earlier--been away on a great Qinghai-Gansu trip. As far as I'm concerned, you guys are welcome to use this thread for the hard questions you've been discussing here.

For a tour guide using this forum, the challenge is to give information without making one's posts sound like a commercial and without giving poachers a path straight to an endangered species's door.

 

[thrush]

Over at my "China ID Puzzlers" thread, we're discussing more hard questions, all ornithological.

Can you pop over there and try your hand at some ID-ing? Go to Page 3 for some leaf warblers and snowfinches from the Qinghai-Gansu Expedition:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=260024&page=3

Thanks for your help.

 

[mjgrunwell]

China birding

Dear all

back in Nanchang and looking forward to Autumn passage.

Further to the debate about China birding.

In my year in the PRC I have met one group of Chinese birders, one!

I want to go to Ji Island in October and find 5 teams working the migrants, do we think there are too many Chinese birders?

I want to encourage the growth of Chinese birding and one way of doing this is to make available as much information about where to go as possible.

Having had the summer to think about this here are my action points for the next year.

1. Have everything I publish translated into Chinese and posted on a suitable Chinese website.

2. Produce a basic guide, in Chinese, to birds of my city and try to get it to every middle school child in the city. (clearly an ambitious task)

3. Advertise day outs to local university students to try to produce a new generation of birders.


Further I make these pledges.

1. I will never act on information supplied which is not publicly available, I will not scuttle around China acting on private messages, if the species or site is vulnerable to disturbance by visiting birders or photographers I will not visit on principle. Therefore it is unlikely that I will ever see Chinese crested tern or Jankowski's bunting or Pere David's Owl.

2. I pledge not to divulge information on fully public forums about Galliformes, persecuted laughers, Owls or any breeding locales of CR or EN birds.

3. Other than in accordance with pledge 2, I will publish everything I see in China

4. I will always act with respect to my host community and try my best to encourage Chinese locals to become interested in birds/nature conservation and study.

Best regards

 

[thrush]

Kestrel Klass

Over on my thread China ID Puzzlers, I've got a discussion going on kestrels. Ah well, I might as well post the thing here, too:

"Lesser Kestrel? Common Kestrel? What do you think? Why? Photos taken near Sùběi (肃北), Gansu, China. 39 degrees N, 95 degrees E. Elev. 2690 m (8,810 ft.). The bird is a single individual, an ad. m., part of a family group (ad. m. plus 1 ad. fem. and 1 juv.). Family had nested on vertical cliffs and was still using cliffs as home base."

Weigh in here or at "Puzzlers." Thanks! And thanks, Michael, for your cri de coeur about the birding situation here in China, and thanks for your pledges.

 

[thrush]

Kestrel Klass, Kontinued

Two more of same ad. m. kestrel as in Pane 335. Even if you think the ID is too easy, please use this as an opportunity to educate others. Thanks.

 

[thrush]

Finally, need to add that photos in foregoing 2 panes were taken last month--July 2014.

 

[thrush]

Kestrel Update

It's conclusive: The birds we saw are Common Kestrels. A photo, attached here, of the black claws removes any vestiges of doubt. (I'd ignored that photo until earlier today.)

I am unfamiliar with Lesser Kestrels, having seen them, most unforgettably, only in Ronda, Spain in 2004. That's why it took a while for me to be sure. When I happened upon the shot attached here of the black claws, finally I had conclusive evidence.

Here are some of the other factors that were pointing toward Common and not Lesser:

1. Spots: None of the books I consulted mentions any form of male Lesser Kestrel EVER having ANY spots on the mantle, back, and lesser coverts. Our bird obviously has spots on the mantle, back, and lesser coverts.

2. Breeding habits: None of the books emphasizes major differences in breeding locations between Lesser and Common. The biggest difference, running through all the works I consulted, is that Lesser tends to breed colonially ("normally in groups of no more than 25 pairs"--HBW II), but Commons, though they may breed colonially, are less likely to do so. A Lesser Kestrel is likely to breed on a cliff face (as was the case with our kestrels), but so is a Common.

3. ALL books I consulted mention the black claws of Common and the white or pale claws of Lesser. The closeup takeoff shot clearly shows black claws.

4. Range: HBW II on Lesser Kestrel: "In Asia regularly breeds up to 1500 m." HBW II on Common: "[Breeds at altitudes] occasionally reaching 4500 m." Our birds were found at 2600 m, well above the limit proposed for Lesser in HBW II and well within the limit for Common.

5. Whether through maps only or in the written description, MacKinnon, Raptors of the World, and HBW II all have Lesser Kestrel breeding north of Gansu. MacKinnon: "Breeds in N and W Xinjiang, Nei Mongol and Hebei." Common Kestrel breeds over much of China, "except dry deserts." Our area was indeed a desert or near desert, but a stream was nearby; most likely MacKinnon is talking about the really dry deserts like Taklimakan.

Works Consulted

Collins Bird Guide to Britain and Europe
HBW II
Raptors of the World (Ferguson-Lees, Christie)
MacKinnon (A Field Guide to the Birds of China)
Birds of the Indian Subcontinent (Grimmett, Inskipp, Inskipp)

 

[thrush]

I'm hoping we can get a consensus on the species of the attached larks. CEB_9369.jpg and CEB_9464.jpg show a single individual. CEB_9343.jpg is a second bird.

All three photos taken at Nuòmùhóng (诺木洪), Qinghai, China, last month. 36 degrees N, 96 degrees E. Elevation: 2700 m.

What are we looking at here?

 

[thrush]

I'm hoping we can get a consensus on the species of the attached larks. ...

Over at China ID Puzzlers, jalid said he thinks the birds in the foregoing pane are Horned Larks. I agree. Bill shape and the faint pattern on the face give away the adult. In the juvenile, note also the bill shape. Horned Larks are extremely numerous at various elevations in Qinghai, so it's not surprising that one can find somewhat anomalous birds such as the adult.