China ID Puzzlers (1 Viewer)

[thrush]

I'm guessing that's what you thought they were Craig?

I knew Alpine Leaf Warbler could occur in that region and at that altitude. What was mystifying me, however, was the extreme dryness of that desert. I wanted to make sure that Alpine Leaf Warbler was adapted to such conditions. Another possibility, we thought, was Dusky Warbler ssp. robustus.

 

[thrush]

Which Montifringilla?

Here's another puzzler for you. Hugely interested in what you have to say here.

Relevant info:

Place: Qinghai-Gansu border, China (Qilian Mountains). 39 degrees N, 94 degrees E. Elev.: 3490 m.

Conditions at site: Obviously dry year-round. Cool even in summer; winters must be bitterly cold. Thin scrub. No tall trees. No running water seen. Dry washes seen. A nearby puddle was a crucial water source.

Time photo taken: this month (July 2014)

Photos show: adult (parent) and juvenile (offspring)

In your opinion, which species of Montifringilla is this (nivalis, adamsi, henrici)? Why?

Thank you for your help.

 

[Johann Sebastian Bach]

What a fascinating thread this is!

I have little expertise in the species illustrated here, so can offer nothing except gratitude for both the wonderful photos and the expert comments expressed.

BF at its best.

Peter :t:

 

[rockfowl]

Difficult due to not seeing too many of these things..

Personally I would suggest Tibetan Snowfinch, though there appears some confusion/lack of updating regarding assignation. OBC has Tibetan as adamsi - http://orientalbirdimages.org/birdi...es&Bird_ID=2103&Bird_Family_ID=176&pagesize=1, IBC as henrici - http://ibc.lynxeds.com/species/tibetan-snowfinch-montifringilla-henrici

 

[thrush]

Difficult due to not seeing too many of these things..

Personally I would suggest Tibetan Snowfinch, though there appears some confusion/lack of updating regarding assignation. OBC has Tibetan as adamsi - http://orientalbirdimages.org/birdi...es&Bird_ID=2103&Bird_Family_ID=176&pagesize=1, IBC as henrici - http://ibc.lynxeds.com/species/tibetan-snowfinch-montifringilla-henrici

Hi rockfowl,

Montifringilla has become tricky since the breakup of the old nivalis taxon. Because of the confusion surrounding the English names for the currently recognized taxa, I refer to the taxa by their Latin names, especially in technical fora such as this one. All I'm interested in is whether you think the birds displayed above are adamsi, nivalis, or henrici; we'll worry about the English names later.

I'll show my hand and say that I too think they're adamsi. Sp. henrici is the least similar of the three and can be eliminated here because the birds in my photos obviously have plumage on the head tending toward greyish, and not earth-brown, as would be the case with henrici. I'd eliminate nivalis on the basis of the relative lack of white on the primaries of the birds pictured. I'm thinking that a nivalis would have white running pretty much up the entire outer primary.

rockfowl, you have such a wide array of contacts; could you find one even more expert than you in Montifringilla? Invite him to comment here; we might be able to clear up a lot of the confusion surrounding Montifringilla.

 

[thrush]

What a fascinating thread this is!

I have little expertise in the species illustrated here, so can offer nothing except gratitude for both the wonderful photos and the expert comments expressed.

BF at its best.

Peter :t:

Dear Herr Bach,

I've been alive forever, and I wrote the very first song; I put the words and the melody together. I am Music, and I write the songs.

I've been a fan of yours for more than 300 years, Mr. Bach.

I admire your restraint in not commenting on areas in which you're not expert, as here with birds. As the saying goes, If it ain't baroque, don't fix it.

Take care,

Music

 

[rockfowl]

Hi rockfowl,


I'll show my hand and say that I too think they're adamsi. Sp. henrici is the least similar of the three and can be eliminated here because the birds in my photos obviously have plumage on the head tending toward greyish, and not earth-brown, as would be the case with henrici. I'd eliminate nivalis on the basis of the relative lack of white on the primaries of the birds pictured. I'm thinking that a nivalis would have white running pretty much up the entire outer primary.

Those echo my thoughts.

rockfowl, you have such a wide array of contacts; could you find one even more expert than you in Montifringilla? Invite him to comment here; we might be able to clear up a lot of the confusion surrounding Montifringilla.

Ask in the China section also, but you know pretty much the same core. I'm sure others will comment once they see the topic.

 

[Johann Sebastian Bach]

Dear Herr Bach,

As the saying goes, If it ain't baroque, don't fix it.

Take care,

Music

:clap::clap::clap:

Peter

 

[James Eaton]

Look like adamsi to my eyes. As well as what's been pointed out with the wings, note the bill shape - nivalis/henrici have massive, long bills in comparision, which these birds do not. I would also say it's a little low in elevation for them, possibly.

Ssp robustus Dusky Warbler would appear pale grey, lacking any olive tones on the underparts (and upperparts) for the previous photo.

James

 

[thrush]

Look like adamsi to my eyes. As well as what's been pointed out with the wings, note the bill shape - nivalis/henrici have massive, long bills in comparision, which these birds do not. I would also say it's a little low in elevation for them, possibly.

Ssp robustus Dusky Warbler would appear pale grey, lacking any olive tones on the underparts (and upperparts) for the previous photo.

James

Thanks, James.

 

[mjgrunwell]

Kloss's/Davison's warbler

Following my trip to Juizhaigou there is only one outstanding query and that is the warbler at Baihe I videoed, the same species was fairly common along the river at the entrance to Labahe.

CAU and James Eaton have said they favour Kloss's, I would be grateful for more comments from CAU and James, and others, as the song, to me, more closely matches Davison's

My apologies to those stuck behind the wall and unable to access Youtube

http://youtu.be/Y5WPxm1i9fE

Thanks

 

[thrush]

... CAU and James Eaton have said they favour Kloss's, ...

I'd say you have a Kloss's here--Phylloscopus ogilviegranti. Davison's (P. davisoni) isn't expected to occur around Jiuzhaigou, and my two recordings of P. davisoni sound little like the bird in the video. Jiuzhaigou is very much in the breeding range of Kloss's. Claudia's (P. claudiae) could also occur in N Sichuan, but your bird has a faster, more slurred song than P. claudiae.

 

[thrush]

Let's Talk About Kestrels

Lesser Kestrel? Common Kestrel? What do you think? Why? Photos taken near Sùběi (肃北), Gansu, China. 39 degrees N, 95 degrees E. Elev. 2690 m (8,810 ft.). The bird is a single individual, an ad. m., part of a family group (ad. m. plus 1 ad. fem. and 1 juv.). Family had nested on vertical cliffs and was still using cliffs as home base.

 

[thrush]

Kestrel Klass, Kon.

Two more of same ad. m. kestrel as in previous pane. Lesser? Common? Why? Please support your answer. Even if you think the ID is easy and not worth your time, please use this as an opportunity to reach the novices using this forum.

 

[thrush]

Finally, need to add that the photos were taken last month--July 2014.

 

[tconzemi]

Two more of same ad. m. kestrel as in previous pane. Lesser? Common? Why? Please support your answer. Even if you think the ID is easy and not worth your time, please use this as an opportunity to reach the novices using this forum.

well it looks straightforward but there are a few puzzling details

pro Common:
obviously the pattern of upperparts with many dark spots and no grey on greater coverts (though possible in sec cal year birds)
head pattern with moustache perfect for Common
so the overall appearance is that of a Common Kestrel

puzzling details
pattern of primaries just perfect for Lesser
wing formula difficult to assess but long P10 suggest wing tip is P9-P10/8 so Lesser
Do I see a white claw in the last pic?

So my opinion is clear cut: from a European way DO NOT try to identify Central Asian Buzzards, Saker and Lesser/Common Kestrel :eek!:

Last pictures published here from China showing Lesser Kestrels were very disturbing, I have to look for them

 

[thrush]

... Last pictures published here from China showing Lesser Kestrels were very disturbing, I have to look for them

Thanks for your contributions. I've alerted my friends to your post and hope to generate more discussion. I await your analysis after you've viewed the pictures of Lesser Kestrels published from China.

 

[tconzemi]

found the thread
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=262017
but the link is to a Little bittern now, maybe someone can help finding the Kestrels on birdnet.cn

 

[thrush]

Kestrel Update

It's conclusive: The birds we saw are Common Kestrels. A photo, attached here, of the black claws removes any vestiges of doubt. (I'd ignored that photo until earlier today.)

I am unfamiliar with Lesser Kestrels, having seen them, most unforgettably, only in Ronda, Spain in 2004. That's why it took a while for me to be sure. When I happened upon the shot attached here of the black claws, finally I had conclusive evidence.

Here are some of the other factors that were pointing toward Common and not Lesser:

1. Spots: None of the books I consulted mentions any form of male Lesser Kestrel EVER having ANY spots on the mantle, back, and lesser coverts. Our bird obviously has spots on the mantle, back, and lesser coverts.

2. Breeding habits: None of the books emphasizes major differences in breeding locations between Lesser and Common. The biggest difference, running through all the works I consulted, is that Lesser tends to breed colonially ("normally in groups of no more than 25 pairs"--HBW II), but Commons, though they may breed colonially, are less likely to do so. A Lesser Kestrel is likely to breed on a cliff face (as was the case with our kestrels), but so is a Common.

3. ALL books I consulted mention the black claws of Common and the white or pale claws of Lesser. The closeup takeoff shot clearly shows black claws.

4. Range: HBW II on Lesser Kestrel: "In Asia regularly breeds up to 1500 m." HBW II on Common: "[Breeds at altitudes] occasionally reaching 4500 m." Our birds were found at 2600 m, well above the limit proposed for Lesser in HBW II and well within the limit for Common.

5. Whether through maps only or in the written description, MacKinnon, Raptors of the World, and HBW II all have Lesser Kestrel breeding north of Gansu. MacKinnon: "Breeds in N and W Xinjiang, Nei Mongol and Hebei." Common Kestrel breeds over much of China, "except dry deserts." Our area was indeed a desert or near desert, but a stream was nearby; most likely MacKinnon is talking about the really dry deserts like Taklimakan.

Works Consulted

Collins Bird Guide to Britain and Europe
HBW II
Raptors of the World (Ferguson-Lees, Christie)
MacKinnon (A Field Guide to the Birds of China)
Birds of the Indian Subcontinent (Grimmett, Inskipp, Inskipp)

 

[tconzemi]

to add a few points
second calendar year males do show patterned coverts, more barring than spotting and no grey coverts yet
eastern Lesser should show even more grey on coverts
the pictures of chinese Lesser on birdnet.cn showed rather dark grey claws but not inkjet black
an obviously yes, this is a Common Kestrel
to see full détail look here http://www.ibercajalav.net/img/130_LesserKestrelFnaumanni.pdf