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Clamorous Reed Warbler or Oriental Reed Warbler? (1 Viewer)

metroplex

Wei Qian
Sorry everyone, I'm a novice in bird watching.

This pic is just single, I'll upload the best size of it(limited by the forum system request) and ask my friend if there are some at other angles.

Hope for your more discussions, I'm really appreciate and always keep viewing and learning.
 

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hannu

Well-known member
gerdwichers8 said:
It may be a locust in the pic but certainly not a locustella. I was referring to the Grasshopper.

Sorry, my careless read...(...thought only category Bird identification ;-) )
 
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hannu

Well-known member
I have tried to summarize the details of the bird based on one picture and some of things are said possibly earlier in the former posts. Sorry fellows, if this looks so long ! ;) This is not some perfect or a final list on this case, but I have tried to write today's impression from this bird to this post. Also some of you may disagree my description, at least partly, but it’s natural.

Th_SQ and Jane have considered earlier that this can be a small Acro. I’d like to add that we have to keep in mind also that option. Maybe both the eye and the size of the bill may favor more on small Acro! But I don’t want yet to dig down a large Acro –option.

The plumage is comparatively fresh, which indicate that this bird is juvenile, because photo is taken in the beginning of October.

The colour of the upperparts (mantle, back, rump) is rather dark; resemble somehow fresh European Reed Warbler, however being richer colouration than above species. General colour is warm brown with rusty /ochre tinge and some greyish tinge in the neck / nape area. It’s good to notice that the weather is not sunny, but cloudy in the time of photographing.

The colour of the underparts is pale, next to whitish (?) with quite widespread ochre-brownish tinge, especially located in the flanks and vent. Throat looks quite dirty whitish.
In October, the bill is probably almost full-grown, which gives us a quite real impact on the jizz of bird. But because bill is open, it’s rather difficult to compare both the length and the width of the bill to each other. But bill is at least medium length, and it doesn't look so long as usually in Clamorous or Oriental in the pictures. Lower mandible is wholly pale and upper mandible wholly dark, which is quite similar as in European Reed Warbler. The colour of lower mandible may refer to the fact that the species is some other than a large Acro.
The border between the supercilium and the forehead is quite distinct in this bird, the supercilium continues quite distinctly to above eye and maybe less distinctly beyond (probably it even lack beyond). Also bird has a short loral stripe. Jane suggested that the eye looks relatively larger in the case than in one Clamorous Reed Warbler, but I’m not so convinced on that conclusion. The Clamorous’s eye is relatively more amidst and it’s shape is maybe more circular (?). Forehead looks slightly darker than crown and it point out the supercilium in the front of the eye.

The primaries are quite dark, almost blackish, and nearly similar as in Marsh Warbler and there is some contrast between primaries and tail feathers. The primaries are finely but clearly tipped whitish as in Marsh Warbler. The tertials are also quite dark, slightly paler than primaries, dark brown.

The edges of greater coverts and tertials, and also the outer edges of the secondaries and the primaries have clear and distinct warm (rusty) brown edges. Especially the edges of greater coverts are widely coloured than other parts of the wing. The outer edges forming some wing panel to the secondaries.

I’m sure that the longest tertial is longer than secondaries. There are 5-6 primary tips in visible beyond the longest tertial. I suppose that the primary projection is quite short, clearly shorter than the length of tertials.
There is possibly only one weak emargination on p9 or p8. The top of wing is possibly P8. Legs are quite dark too.

After all, I have always difficulties to specify tinges correctly. I think that most people in this forum own better sense of colour. :t:
 
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hannu

Well-known member
gerdwichers8 said:
The fringing to the remex is mentioned for a juv. Oriental Reed in Svensson and HBW; This fringing cant be found for Clamorous in Svensson since he does not treat the species, but HBW does treat juv. Clamorous and does not mention such fringing on juv. Clamorous.
For the underside I cant follow HBW for Oriental Reed since it mentions it as "a slight yellowish tinge and a more richly washed tawny-buff"
Juv. Clamorous is mentioned to have "bright rusty ochre, especially on underparts"

I just saw two pics from Oriental RW and indeed, Juv Oriental has clearly pale golden rufous above (as Svensson says). If the general colour of upperparts match then better to Clamorous (being bright rusty ochre, especially on underparts), why HBW did not mention such fringing on juv. Clamorous?
Juv Oriental has that kind of fringing in the primary tips...
In addition to (if I remember right), adults of Large Acro start moult in October or later,...
So this kind of fresh plumage can be only in juvenile bird.(?)

So I think now that it's next to Clamorous as Gerd has suggested from the word go.
 
hannu said:
I just saw two pics from Oriental RW and indeed, Juv Oriental has clearly pale golden rufous above (as Svensson says). If the general colour of upperparts match then better to Clamorous (being bright rusty ochre, especially on underparts), why HBW did not mention such fringing on juv. Clamorous?
.


but which race of Clamorous are you talking about Hannu?

the eastern race is rather different to the one in west pal. Oriental and Clamourous in Asia have several features that converge such as primary projection.

It would help if pix/posts of these species have the location/subspecies posted, otherwise they can be quite misleading.

I also thought it may not be a large acro - for several reasons
 
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hannu

Well-known member
Tim Allwood said:
It would help if pix/posts of these species have the location/subspecies posted, otherwise they can be quite misleading.

I also thought it may not be a large acro - for several reasons

Ok, you are right, but do you know, does there published something about the id of these ssp in some bird magazine?
Those my mentioned Oriental pics were taken in Singapore.
Unfortuately I don't know today's taxonomy situation, because it change all the time, as you maybe already know,...
So when you have several reasons, that you think that it may not be a large acro, would you kindly open your secret chest?
I don't get to my mind any small acro which have this kind of general colouration, so do you have some candidate?
 
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hannu

Well-known member
yep, I noticed that Jane, but I have not heard any serious candidate from small Acro group... and I'm still curious to hear Tim's answer to my question...

Bird taxa of the WP15 tell us follow details
about Oriental and Clamorous Reed Warbler:

Oriental Reed Warbler Acrocephalus orientalis
(monotypic)

Clamorous Reed Warbler Acrocephalus stentoreus
(1) stentoreus Egypt, east to Suez Canal area
(2) levantina Israel, Syria, and Jordan
(3) brunnescens
Shores of central and southern Red Sea and Arabia, and from Iran east to southern
Kazakhstan and central India

So I don't know, does there any other eastern subspecies of Clamorous,....
 

gerdwichers8

Well-known member
hannu said:
In addition to (if I remember right), adults of Large Acro start moult in October or later,...
So this kind of fresh plumage can be only in juvenile bird.(?)

As said in post #16, Oriental Reed will in any case have completed its moult in mid. October; Juv. moults late July- mid October; ad. post-breeding mid July-mid September.
Clamorous Reed amyae, will have its moult mid or late August to October or beginning of November. juv. will moult as in the adult (post-breeding)
 

hannu

Well-known member
Thanx Gerd, .....
The bill can be just so much longer that it can match also to a Large Acro.
Namely that Grasshopper cover up the tip of bill.
 

hannu

Well-known member
Head shape varies a lot at least in stentoreus; one are quite similar as the shape of small Acro head and other like in large Acro...
Also some stentoreus seems to be a relatively small head compared to the body size (this can due partly on view angles in some cases).
The lenght of bill: see my former post + it does not look so long at least in every stentoreus cases
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/komi/acr_ste_2_001_6575.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/komi/acr_ste_2_003_6570.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/SL/acrste_linjama_310305.JPG
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/komi/acr_ste_002_7288.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/komi/acr_ste_1_001_6594.jpg

more pictures on Tarsiger-page....
 
the race of CRW in question will be brunnescens not stentoreous

measurements of bill length may differ btw the two, as other features certainly do.

Tim
 

hannu

Well-known member
Tim Allwood said:
the race of CRW in question will be brunnescens not stentoreous

measurements of bill length may differ btw the two, as other features certainly do.

Tim

I did not claim that the China bird is ssp. stentoreus.
But because we have not available any photos of brunnescens,
I used pics of stentoreus to show that even a large acro can look very similar as a small Acro in certain views. And I suppose strongly that these subspecies have many resemblance....

You did not answer yet my two questions, Tim !

1) So when you have several reasons, that you think that it may not be a large acro, would you kindly open your secret chest?

2) I don't get to my mind any small acro which have this kind of general colouration, so do you have some candidate?
 
hannu said:
You did not answer yet my two questions, Tim !

1) So when you have several reasons, that you think that it may not be a large acro, would you kindly open your secret chest?

2) I don't get to my mind any small acro which have this kind of general colouration, so do you have some candidate?

I can't really tell much at all from this single photo. In the field I might be able to identify it, given some prolonged views. I've seen a reasonable number of ORW and CRW in Asia, and a few other acros there too but can't offer any suggestions that would be useful, sorry. Anything I said would only really be conjecture though, without a few more photographs.

there are some brunnescens pix here: http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...=1&PHPSESSID=e131ade12fe7ac35b6ee9a78b378502e

brunnescens is a possible/potential split by the way... Indian Reed Warbler or Indian Great Warbler

Tim
 
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gerdwichers8

Well-known member
Tim Allwood said:
the race of CRW in question will be brunnescens not stentoreous
Tim

Chengdu is in China Tim.
The race in SE Xizang E to S Sichuan and Guizhou will be amaye, not brunnescens.
The latter occurs in NE Sudan, NW Somalia, Arabian Peninsula and from SC Kazachstan S to S Iraq and Iran. And E to N India.
 
gerdwichers8 said:
Chengdu is in China Tim.
The race in SE Xizang E to S Sichuan and Guizhou will be amaye, not brunnescens.
The latter occurs in NE Sudan, NW Somalia, Arabian Peninsula and from SC Kazachstan S to S Iraq and Iran. And E to N India.

sorry Gerd
my mistake. I wasn't thinking straight. There are so many subspecies of this bird it makes my brain ache. It's a very complex area indeed. However, I suspect the changes that occur in brunnescens are even more marked as you go further east (towards amaye) but i don't know (maybe there's clinal changes north of the himalayan barrier). The Indian form itself is quite different - hence the split, i think, by Pam Rasmussen. Id in the field is hard - even if you know what you 'should' be looking at. From a pic it's just too hard for me.

I should see a few though in early April!!!
 
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hannu

Well-known member
Tim Allwood said:
I can't really tell much at all from this single photo. In the field I might be able to identify it, given some prolonged views. I've seen a reasonable number of ORW and CRW in Asia, and a few other acros there too but can't offer any suggestions that would be useful, sorry. Anything I said would only really be conjecture though, without a few more photographs.

there are some brunnescens pix here: http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...=1&PHPSESSID=e131ade12fe7ac35b6ee9a78b378502e

brunnescens is a possible/potential split by the way... Indian Reed Warbler or Indian Great Warbler

Tim

I don't see any remarkable differences in general impression between your mentioned brunnescens and stentoreus. I wonder your answer because you said so unfailing way to know several reasons, that you think that it may not be a large acro....
So does the any other features which have not mentioned yet?
By the way, it's so many times a guess, but based on available knowledge.
 
hannu said:
I don't see any remarkable differences in general impression between your mentioned brunnescens and stentoreus. I wonder your answer because you said so unfailing way to know several reasons, that you think that it may not be a large acro....
So does the any other features which have not mentioned yet?
By the way, it's so many times a guess, but based on available knowledge.

Hi Hannu


well wing-length varies btw subspecies of CRW quite a bit, upperpart colour too, i expect also bill length. And i suspect other features. There is an excellent paper on this group in i think a recent IBIS.

I am well past the limit of my knowledge and ability with these birds. Pictures of one bird with no location or race are possibly more confusing than helpful. Extrapolating on head shape and other features to birds geographically quite separate may muddy the waters. This isn't a criticism of people who are trying to help id this bird, just my own view.

The bird is an acro for me, possibly a small CRW, maybe even a smaller species but like i say i am basically stuck on this on.
 

Larry Sweetland

Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
Tim Allwood said:
Hi Hannu


well wing-length varies btw subspecies of CRW quite a bit, upperpart colour too, i expect also bill length. And i suspect other features. There is an excellent paper on this group in i think a recent IBIS.

I am well past the limit of my knowledge and ability with these birds. Pictures of one bird with no location or race are possibly more confusing than helpful. Extrapolating on head shape and other features to birds geographically quite separate may muddy the waters. This isn't a criticism of people who are trying to help id this bird, just my own view.

The bird is an acro for me, possibly a small CRW, maybe even a smaller species but like i say i am basically stuck on this on.

Beautiful Tim. Tell it how it is !
 
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