Countryside Alliance urges BBC to sack Chris Packham in conservation rrwo (1 Viewer)

[Adam W]

Perhaps they're too frightened to confront and deal with the rotten barrels in their sport for fear of providing ammunition for 'antis'

That's the problem and why I've always been a firm believer that the only hope is for both sides to work together and that's why groups like RSPB make a point of not being anti shooting.
As long as we have an us and them situation which the antis play at least an equal part in creating then shooters will be very reluctant to turn against each other and as you say simply hand ammunition to the antis as it's just not in their own best interest.
If the antis were willing to do as the RSPB do and accept and work with law abiding shooters then just maybe those law abiding shooters would be willing to return the favour but as it stands why would a law abiding shooter help people who would love nothing better than to stop them going about their legal hobby that they love?

 

[chris butterworth]

Robin Page, while presenting "One Man and his Dog" on the BBC, was vociferous in his support for blood sports ( and damning in his views of many conservation organisations attempts to preserve raptors ) in national newspapers and other media. Clarissa Dickson-Wright wasn't exactly a shrinking Violet when she presented it either.
Just a little aside. Shotgun licences. That's all you need to have a working gun on a TANK in the UK.

 

[John Cantelo]

If the antis were willing to do as the RSPB do and accept and work with law abiding shooters then just maybe those law abiding shooters would be willing to return the favour but as it stands why would a law abiding shooter help people who would love nothing better than to stop them going about their legal hobby that they love?

That sounds all very fine and dandy except that after years, decades even, of the RSPB talking to such groups they don't seem to have shifted their ground much at all. Too many gamekeepers continue to kill protected species (even in very high profile cases), too often damage to SSSIs is done with, for the most part, apparent impunity, mass slaughter of Mountain Hares is initiated and continued, calls to allow legal shooting of raptors grow more strident, public subsidy is absorbed as if as a right and now they expect to be 'rewarded' for systematic persecution of Hen Harriers by 'brood meddling'. There simply comes a time when you just have to say 'no more'.

 

[Craig H]

Good question, whether it does happen I don't know but it certainly should and would go a long way to solving the problem.
Couple of things I would say though are its important to remember that the whole idea of people paying to go and shoot on an estate is only one aspect of shooting there are many thousands of shooters like me who go wildfowling,Pigeon shooting,rough shooting etc that have no connection at all to any shooting estates so we obviously can't boycott something we don't use anyway.
The other thing is how many shooters that do use estates actually know what really goes on? I'm a shooter that knows what goes on but by far the main reason for that is because I'm also a birder and spend a lot of time looking at things such as this forum. If I was only a shooter I'm pretty sure I wouldn't know half of what I do and would be of the opinion that it just a few bad apples and the antis blowing it out of proportion.
What the answer to that is I don't know, maybe the shooting press and even organisations such as the CA need to take more responsibility for making shooters aware and trying to get them to boycott the wrong doers.

And there is the nub of the problem as I think others have already said. Many who shoot just spring to the defence of others who shoot because a) they are worried it will result in them losing their 'sport' and b) because BASC CA GWCT etc won't stand up against it they assume it's a few animal rights extremists who are causing trouble. As I said before I have no issue with wildfowling etc and wouldn't seek to ban it as not a single wildfowler I know has ever shot or condoned shooting of raptors. This is why shooting as a whole needs to get its act together, but it seems to be stubbornly refusing and sticking its fingers in its ears and hands over its eyes and going nah nah nah not us not us.

 

[Robin Edwards]

That's the thing though Robin, I'm not a member of any shooting related forums if there even are any and the only shooters I know are the three people I shoot with who are of the same opinion as me anyway.
There isn't really an active internet shooting world in the same way there is a whole internet birding world and I don't meet dozens or even hundreds of other shooters out in the field like I do birders. The shooting world just doesn't work the same way as the birding world or at least it doesn't for me anyway.
We always see people using phrases like the shooting fraternity or community as though we are all one big happy family all looking out for each other and covering each others backs sticking together to fight against the antis but it's just not like that at all. I'm just a random individual that happens to shoot and I have no connection to or influence over anyone or anything else to do with the whole world of shooting I just end up getting tarred with the same brush as the rest of it for no actual reason.

I think you make a good point here. Sports shooting has many factions but is also big business, far bigger than birding or bird conservation in terms of revenue. I ask myself why likeminded sportsmen and keepers don't throng to social media forums such as this to share their experiences and concerns as some seem to do via FB & Twitter? There seems to be a forum for every other leisure pursuit but not for Grouse Shooting anyway.
I found forums.pigeonwatch.Co.uk but not much doing there?
Would you say the world of keeping is not a pursuit that lends itself to open discussion considering what this involves? This would be my experience.

 

[SteveTS]

For those who may wish to contribute to the debate elsewhere, in particular the continued illegal shooting of raptors on driven game shoots, the three main UK shooting internet forums are The Stalking Directory, Pigeon Watch, and AirgunBBS.

You will find a few who shoot are sickened by the continued killing of raptors.

The challenge of course, for the average shooter, is that he or she may never participate in DGS and is as such unable to vote with their feet, although a few do voice their opposition.

There are some involved in invasive pest mammal management who do not give two hoots for the game shooting industry and would welcome a swift change for the better.

Best wishes,

 

[Had.enough]

There isn't really an active internet shooting world in the same way there is a whole internet birding wor.

Go to Google and search for " UK shooting forum"
Plenty of vibrant online communities for you to contribute on. Some of them even look a little like birdforum

 

[MKinHK]

For Chris Packham to have attracted this level of attention from a lobbyist for a group of big business interests that have a well documented negative (and sometimes illegal) impact on the UK's biodiversity proves he is doing enough to cause discomfort. Good on him. He should frame Bonner's letter as a milestone of achievement . . . and keep talking and campaigning wherever his status enhances the impact of his message.

That the CA campaign has backfired spectacularly makes sweet reading. Bonner's trick was clever if ultimately unsuccessful - as others have said, BBC is not just news and many views are expressed. The best lies are always very close to the truth.

Let's hope this doesn't cost Bonner his job. The British public - as shown by the survey - clearly has his measure, which means his effectiveness (and that of CA) can only decline from this point forward.

Cheers
Mike

 

[keith]

I have always admired Chris Packham
He stands up for what he believes in and is far more a man than the domineering bullies who kill innocent creatures for 'pleasure' or illegally because they are just plain evil.

I agree totally with this statement, we've needed someone like Chris for a long time, there is so much wrong with what goes on in the countryside, I've always felt so frustrated that the people who own the estates are getting away with their criminal activities and don't give a damn that we know what's going on. Now, with Chris and Mark Avery, something positive could finally be happening, I really hope so, I don't feel in the minority so much any more.

 

[John Cantelo]

See a video of Chris Packham giving his thanks and suggesting what you can do at http://www.chrispackham.co.uk/news/thank-you

I think he comes over very well.

 

[Adam W]

I think you make a good point here. Sports shooting has many factions but is also big business, far bigger than birding or bird conservation in terms of revenue. I ask myself why likeminded sportsmen and keepers don't throng to social media forums such as this to share their experiences and concerns as some seem to do via FB & Twitter? There seems to be a forum for every other leisure pursuit but not for Grouse Shooting anyway.
I found forums.pigeonwatch.Co.uk but not much doing there?
Would you say the world of keeping is not a pursuit that lends itself to open discussion considering what this involves? This would be my experience.

I don't think it's a case of lets keep it quiet so people don't know what we're up to it's just a case of shooting isn't really something that lends itself to the internet world there's just no reason to get as much info out there and as quickly as possible and discuss things etc in the way that there is in birding.
Despite its problems at times I'm sure most of us would agree that we have benefited in the birding world from the internet but there just isn't really much benefit to be had from the internet for shooters.

I would imagine that there's also the fact that many shooters are more the type of people who aren't so likely to want to spend(or waste some might say) their time messing about on the internet they'd rather be out and about.

As you know I'm 50% birder and 50% shooter but when it comes to the internet probably 99% of the time I spend on it are for birding reasons it just has no use for me as a shooter.

 

[pratincol]

So what gives you the right to take the life of another living creature to satisfy your selfish pleasures Adam?
Can you explain the thrill you feel when you see a creature being killed and mutilated for fun?
It does make me laugh when shooting is described as a sport.
I was brought up to believe a sport was a battle between two equally equipped teams or individuals.
As far as I can see, a coward stands behind a gun and kills an innocent, defenceless, creature who has just the same right to live as you.

 

[Adam W]

So what gives you the right to take the life of another living creature to satisfy your selfish pleasures Adam?
Can you explain the thrill you feel when you see a creature being killed and mutilated for fun?
It does make me laugh when shooting is described as a sport.
I was brought up to believe a sport was a battle between two equally equipped teams or individuals.
As far as I can see, a coward stands behind a gun and kills an innocent, defenceless, creature who has just the same right to live as you.

I never used the word sport although if you read the actual definition of the word there's no reason I shouldn't as it doesn't mean what most people these days seem to think it means and I've never really understood why so many people get worked up about a word anyway. Call it what you want but it wont change what happens so why does it matter?

Nowhere have I ever said that there's any thrill in killing something. I get a lot of pleasure,enjoyment ,satisfaction whatever you want to call it from the overall experience of a days shooting but there's no thrill or pleasure in the actual killing.

From your last sentence I assume you don't eat meat and are strongly opposed to anyone that does?

 

[SteveTS]

So what gives you the right to take the life of another living creature to satisfy your selfish pleasures Adam?
Can you explain the thrill you feel when you see a creature being killed and mutilated for fun?
It does make me laugh when shooting is described as a sport.
I was brought up to believe a sport was a battle between two equally equipped teams or individuals.
As far as I can see, a coward stands behind a gun and kills an innocent, defenceless, creature who has just the same right to live as you.

This is the bit where the personal calling completely ceases to inform the debate.

Yawn,

 

[pratincol]

Oh no, not that old chestnut, raising the daft argument about eating meat.
Introduce that as another topic on another forum and let us stick to the point.
You don't answer the question about the right you have to decide when an innocent creature is going to be killed.Do you think you are a superior entity to a bird?
So you get a lot of pleasure,enjoyment and satisfaction going out to shoot - but you do not take pleasure or get a cheap thrill when you actually kill a bird!In any case when does it matter at which point of the exercise you get a kick out of it.Splitting hairs yet again.
Describe the feeling you have once you have carried out the killing in cold blood.I would be fascinated to know.
Do you then hate yourself,feel guilty, feel proud of yourself,wish you could control your behaviour or none of the above?
Killing birds as a sport is cowardly.They haven't got a chance against the bullies who do so.
Everyone knows slaughtering defenceless, innocent, birds and other animals is called a field sport so let us not be pedantic.

 

[delia todd]

pratincol

We don't discuss hunting on this forum!

 

[chris butterworth]

Adam is just stating his views, and when it comes to shooting those views are always balanced and considered. That some of us may disagree with him on certain points ( and I do over the thread in question ) doesn't detract from what he says. He stands his ground but is always courteous. Let's do him the same courtesy.

 

[Jos Stratford]

How much of your time on here is spent being a shooter/hunter/badger killer apologist? 20 replies on this thread alone.

Whenever a subject like this comes up, you, the resident BF killer of birds wades in to the debate and doesn't give up until you've had the last word..

To be fair, Adam also posts frequently on the local observations threads for the north-east and elsewhere. And, though I haven't counted, I think several others have posted 20 replies on this thread.

He posts an opinion, nothing more. And, though I don't agree with him on this occasion that Chris Packham should not use his BBC position to state his views, I respect him to voice them. It seems a totally pointless - and counterproductive - stance to lay on the personal attacks on Adam whenever he post on the topics on the issue of hunting (frequently entering the debates because he is asked to, or is directly answering a question). That Adam is a hunter AND a birder has got to be a good thing, he does condemn illegal persecution and, it would seem, belongs to a responsible segment of the hunting world ...it would be far better if there were more like this. But if he gets laid into everytime he posts, what chances of us birders getting any respect for our views?

 

[pratincol]

Good points, well said Red Eyed Video.

 

[pratincol]

I'm sure Adam is more than capable of answering for himself. He is vociferous enough in his posts that I no longer bother replying, exception made this time but I don''t know why I waste my time.

I fully understand!