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Crested Jay (1 Viewer)

Ben88

Well-known member
In James Eaton's most recent trip report from Myanmar, Crested Jay is placed in Laniidae and he writes that it is "now found to actually be a shrike, and not a crow!"

Does anyone know what the source for this is? Is there a new paper?
 

Peter Kovalik

Well-known member
Slovakia
In James Eaton's most recent trip report from Myanmar, Crested Jay is placed in Laniidae and he writes that it is "now found to actually be a shrike, and not a crow!"

Does anyone know what the source for this is? Is there a new paper?

Jønsson, Fabre, Kennedy, Holt, Borregaard, Rahbek & Fjeldså, 2016. A supermatrix phylogeny of corvoid passerine birds (Aves: Corvides). Mol Phylogenet Evol.

See andrew147 post #16
 

l_raty

laurent raty
Platylophus was found sister to Lanius by Jønsson et al. 2008 [pdf here] and by Aggerbeck et al. 2013 [pdf here]; Jønsson et al. 2016 [pdf], in a supermatrix analysis, recovered it sister to Eurocephalus (and this group sister to Lanius). But, as I noted in the thread referenced by Peter, this last inference is problematic, because the data set that was used included no gene that has been sequenced for both Platylophus and Eurocephalus (the data are on [Dryad]; they used only ND2 for Eurocephalus; GAPDH, MYO and ODC for Platylophus).

Bird families of the world recognises a monotypic family Platylophidae, but I'm unclear that this name was ever made available. (I'd be interested if anyone knows a possible source.) And, of course, under this treatment, the monophyly of their Laniidae in uncertain.
 
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l_raty

laurent raty
6 results on Google.
Yes -- this, I know.

But I don't really trust Google to find the original publication of family-group names for a variety of reasons, including:

- There are things that exist only in obscure books from the second part of the 20th C, that are still under copyright ans have not been scanned, not even by Google.
- There are things that exist only as a name in Roman lettering appearing in the middle of a text printed in Cyrillic: these are very often incorrectly interpreted by OCR programs that are set up to read Cyrillic. To a lesser extent, the same problem can apply to texts printed in Gothic.
- Family-group names in old works may be particularly hard to find, because (1) the name can have been made available with an unusual suffix (Platylophidae, Platylophinae, Platylophini, Platyliphina, Platylopheae, Platylophae, Platylophaceae, Platylophides, Platylophi [the latter only if clearly used at supra-generic rank]: all of these [and others...] would be OK); (2) prior to the 20th C, family-group names were usually printed in italics, and often ended with an æ ligature (-idæ, -inæ, -eæ), and ORC programs like neither (the ligature is often read 'se' when it is printed with a font that renders it like this: 'æ'; it is often read 'ce' when printed with a font that renders it more like this: 'æ').
 

mb1848

Well-known member
"I'd be interested if anyone knows a possible source." No pressure no pressure at all.
I wonder if the Jønsson and Aggerbeck papers show any connection of the Crested Jay and starlings? In TIF it says "The Crested Jay, Platylophus galericulatus, is another ringer. It's definitely not a corvid. It may be a starling (Clench, 1985)" Here is Clench 1985:
http://australianmuseum.net.au/uploads/journals/17651/305_complete.pdf .
I cannot really see where she says that but I'm feverish.
 

Jim LeNomenclatoriste

Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
France
Platylophus was found sister to Lanius by Jønsson et al. 2008 [pdf here] and by Aggerbeck et al. 2013 [pdf here]; Jønsson et al. 2016 [pdf], in a supermatrix analysis, recovered it sister to Eurocephalus (and this group sister to Lanius). But, as I noted in the thread referenced by Peter, this last inference is problematic, because the data set that was used included no gene that has been sequenced for both Platylophus and Eurocephalus (the data are on [Dryad]; they used only ND2 for Eurocephalus; GAPDH, MYO and ODC for Platylophus).

Bird families of the world recognises a monotypic family Platylophidae, but I'm unclear that this name was ever made available. (I'd be interested if anyone knows a possible source.) And, of course, under this treatment, the monophyly of their Laniidae in uncertain.
Lophocittidae is based on Lophocitta which is actually a synonym of Platylophus. Like Neosittidae and its unique genus Daphoenositta, Lophocittidae may well be applied, no ?
 
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l_raty

laurent raty
Lophocittidae is based on Lophocitta which is actually a synonym of Platylophus. Like Neosittidae and its unique genus Daphoenositta, Lophocittidae may well be applied, no ?
Lophocitteae Kaup 1855; group; Kaup J. 1855. Einigen Worte über die systematische Stellung der Familie der Raben, Corvidae. In: Cabanis J [ed]. Erinnerungsschrift zum Gedächtnisse an die VIII. Jahresversammlung der deutschen Ornithologen-Gesellschaft, abgehalten in Gotha vom 17. bis 20. Juli 1854. J. Ornithol., 2 (suppl.): xlvii-lvi.; p. lv; Jahrg.1-2=no.1-12;Suppl.:Jahrg.1 (1853-1854) - Journal für Ornithologie. - Biodiversity Heritage Library

It has presumably not been used after 1899, but if Platylophidae has not been made available, it has no contender. So, in all likelihood, yes, it can be used.
 

Jim LeNomenclatoriste

Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
France
Lophocitteae Kaup 1855; group; Kaup J. 1855. Einigen Worte über die systematische Stellung der Familie der Raben, Corvidae. In: Cabanis J [ed]. Erinnerungsschrift zum Gedächtnisse an die VIII. Jahresversammlung der deutschen Ornithologen-Gesellschaft, abgehalten in Gotha vom 17. bis 20. Juli 1854. J. Ornithol., 2 (suppl.): xlvii-lvi.; p. lv; Jahrg.1-2=no.1-12;Suppl.:Jahrg.1 (1853-1854) - Journal für Ornithologie. - Biodiversity Heritage Library

It has presumably not been used after 1899, but if Platylophidae has not been made available, it has no contender. So, in all likelihood, yes, it can be used.
Lophocittidae complies with art. 40.1 of ICZN
 

Jim LeNomenclatoriste

Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
France
Lophocitteae Kaup 1855; group; Kaup J. 1855. Einigen Worte über die systematische Stellung der Familie der Raben, Corvidae. In: Cabanis J [ed]. Erinnerungsschrift zum Gedächtnisse an die VIII. Jahresversammlung der deutschen Ornithologen-Gesellschaft, abgehalten in Gotha vom 17. bis 20. Juli 1854. J. Ornithol., 2 (suppl.): xlvii-lvi.; p. lv; Jahrg.1-2=no.1-12;Suppl.:Jahrg.1 (1853-1854) - Journal für Ornithologie. - Biodiversity Heritage Library

It has presumably not been used after 1899, but if Platylophidae has not been made available, it has no contender. So, in all likelihood, yes, it can be used.
But, isn't it a nomen nudum?
 

l_raty

laurent raty
But, isn't it a nomen nudum?
No. Before 1931, "12.2.4. the formation of a family-group name from an available generic name" counts as an indication and is enough to make the name available. IOW, a wannabe family-group name will be nude only if its intended type genus is itself nude when the family-group name is published.
Lophocitta Gray 1840 was unquestionably available in 1855.
 

Jim LeNomenclatoriste

Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
France
Hi all

George Sangster and myself have submit a manuscript in which we describe the family Platylophidae as new. George Sangster, through Guy Kirwan, told me to ask if you would have a better name than Crested Shrikejay or Crested jay for Platylophus galericulatus. A different name that would set it apart from both shrikes and jays. A unique and specific name for this bird? One of the reviewer suggest the name Shrike-jay (with a hyphen). He also suggest to give it a local name given by the people of the countries where this bird breeds.

What do you think ?

Thanks
 
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Jim LeNomenclatoriste

Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
France
Hi Jim,
I thought Platylophidae had already been created (altho' I am not sure of the source); see the Platylophus entry in The Key.
Don Roberson checked the book Bird families of the world (2015) and according to him, the name has not been introduced in the sense of the Code. This is what George told me
 

Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
Hi all

George Sangster and myself have submit a manuscript in which we describe the family Platylophidae as new. George Sangster, through Guy Kirwan, told me to ask if you would have a better name than Crested Shrikejay or Crested jay for Platylophus galericulatus. A different name that would set it apart from both shrikes and jays. A unique and specific name for this bird? One of the reviewer suggest the name Shrike-jay (with a hyphen). He also suggest to give it a local name given by the people of the countries where this bird breeds.

What do you think ?

Thanks
Shrike-jay. Crested Shrike-jay somehow implies there are other non-crested Shrike-jays. Unless you are including White-crowned Shrikes in that clade and renaming them as shrike-jays.

Although I also think Shrikejay is also fine.
 
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Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
I don't see how a hyphen changes that.

Crested Shrikejay is a good name in my opinion
no I just forget to add the hyphen in there, it's more that the Crested part is redundant

There are no other Shrike-jays, so why not keep it simple and just go with Shrike-jay.
 
ZEISS. Discover the fascinating world of birds, and win a birding trip to Columbia
ZEISS. Discover the fascinating world of birds, and win a birding trip to Colombia
ZEISS. Discover the fascinating world of birds, and win a birding trip to Colombia

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