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Message: <blockquote data-quote="thomasdonegan" data-source="post: 1933602" data-attributes="member: 5190">In relation to this point:  "Kroodsma's research is also instrumental in demonstrating that tyrant-flycatchers and finches (among other birds) have very different methods of song development. Tyrant-flycatchers have innate songs, whereas finches learn their songs. In other words, this is an apples to oranges comparison. I think a more fruitful (so to speak) approach would be to compare crossbill differentiation with tit/chickadee differentiation, although that is a developing field as well. Speaking of apples and oranges, it should go without saying that crossbill and human speciation are not comparable."I do appreciate all that.  However, with finches, there is well documented geographical variation in plumage which you can compare to vocal variation.  For crossbills, there are studies showing some average (i.e. not diagnosable) differences in bill size or shape but not much more.Conventional wisdom is that oscines learn their songs but suboscines have innate songs.  However, I don't know if anyone has ever suggested that if you play warbler songs at a crow pullus, it will end up singing like a warbler.  Also, some oscine calls may be more innate in nature than their more complex songs.  Even with closely related species, bill size and shape (note: relevant to crossbills) and gape muscle strength constrain vocal ability.  As a result, I do think that studies of this nature would be a very helpful step in resolving what is going on with these difficult birds.</blockquote>

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