Curlew sp. at Minsmere (1 Viewer)

[marek_walford]

With respect Rob, I have yet to see a detailed reason why an aberrant form is a non-starter including with colleagues here at The Lodge who are a lot more experienced than I am.

The BB article addresses the possibility of the Druridge bird being an aberrant Curlew and basically says that aberrant birds are aberrant in one feature (i.e. leucistic plumage or a short bill). It argues that the chances of one bird showing several aberrant features (in the case of the Druridge bird and the Minsmere one - small, short-billed and pale) is very, very unlikely. I can believe this which is why I believe the Minsmere bird is more likely to be an obscure race of Eurasian Curlew that we know little about.

 

[Rob Hutchinson]

Minsmere Curlew sp.

I'd be very interested to hear Didier Vangeluwe's arguments for SBC since it's against his own criteria and Jimmy Steele's (they wrote the BB article) that the Minsmere bird doesn't appear to stack up.

1) Why is the bill so thick and without the fine tip characteristic of SBC?
2) Why is the bill so extensively pinkish-brown (as mentioned above by Marek)?
3) Why is the mantle no darker than Eurasian Curlew?
4) Why is there such a clear eye-ring?
5) Why are the tertials and tail more closely barred than the Druridge bird?
6) Why is the breast streaking so indistinct?
7) Why is there such a dark ground colour to the breast?

This is more or less the same as the list I posted before, though one or two points have now been addressed. I would be delighted to see evidence countering the rest, but for the moment I don't consider this bird is securely identifiable as a Slender-billed Curlew.

I would definitely echo the thoughs re. Bill Shape (Particularly the broad base) & colouration, I thought these where the main negative points on the bird, how do you think they compare to the photos on the link I post earlier however, look very similar to me.
I can't comment on the other features and suspect most (perhaps not the tertial & tail barring?) are very variable in both species and of little help in identification.
Still troubled by the background colouration of the flanks however, even photos of young SBC appear to show a clean white base colour?

Rob

 

[banyantree]

I have just read this thread from the beginning, looked at all the photos, checked BWP and exhaustively compared these with the BB paper on the Druridge Bay bird - you will understand this when I explain that I have a flight booked from Hong Kong on Sunday night!

It is obviously not an eastern Eurasian Curlew - take it from me these are monsters compared with your European birds. I don't buy Whimbrel - I was part of a group which ringed 18 (all juveniles) this week and juvenile Whimbrels have the same head pattern as adults (alright - I don't have any experience of alboaxillaris but the literature makes no reference to differences in head pattern from European birds). The odds on this being the first ever documented Numenius hybrid seem tiny (a risk I'm prepared to take and to be so pale-rumped it would have to have an SBR as one parent). The worry is an aberrant Eurasian Curlew: which would have to be unusually small, unusually short-billed and have plumage features none of which rule out SBR and several (head pattern, dark mantle, lack of transverse barring on flank markings, axillary colour, underwing colour) which at least point to SBR.

But...I do worry that, based on the photos, the bill is not tapering enough and the tip not fine enough. (I'm not worried about bill colour or the width of the bill base, cf the BB paper and the other literature).

So, those who have seen it - please help me out as I think that this is difficult to decide from photos - how fine is the bill tip? Especially, is there any suggestion of a bulbous tip?

If not - I'm on the 'plane on Sunday night (if it is seen on Sunday!).

Thanks and best regards.

Mike

 

[Rob Hutchinson]

The BB article addresses the possibility of the Druridge bird being an aberrant Curlew and basically says that aberrant birds are aberrant in one feature (i.e. leucistic plumage or a short bill). It argues that the chances of one bird showing several aberrant features (in the case of the Druridge bird and the Minsmere one - small, short-billed and pale) is very, very unlikely. I can believe this which is why I believe the Minsmere bird is more likely to be an obscure race of Eurasian Curlew that we know little about.

This is probably true but are the features of the Minsmere bird really abberant for a Eurasian Curlew, the bird did not appear much smaller than the accompanying Curlew when I saw it, it may be at the lower end of the size range for EC (ie this may be in the range where measurements overlap with SBC) but I would doubt it is outside the known range for EC ie not aberrant.
Same goes for the bill, would imagine this is within overlap between the 2 species again don't think being the case don't think it could be descibed as aberrant - indeed might we not expect a small bodied individual to have a smaller bill? Watching the bird in direct comparison with EC I could not note any differences in structure / colouration, the birds bill simply looked like a scaled down version of the EC bill.
I don't have enough experience of Curlew colour variation to say whether a pale bird like this is unusual.
Although it is perhaps wrong to say that these features are 'aberrant' it may be true that it is statistically less likely for a species to show several features at the limit of the known variation for that species - but it is possible!

Rob

 

[Steve]

Good luck to you Mike, you will be a Mega tick yourself for the Bf 200 club !

 

[tom mckinney]

1) Why is the bill so thick and without the fine tip characteristic of SBC?

Subjective, but I would say it most certainly is NOT thick and has a very fine tip.

2) Why is the bill so extensively pinkish-brown (as mentioned above by Marek)?

I spoke to Jimmy Steele and this is not a problem and features in many of Vangeluwe's skin photos.

3) Why is the mantle no darker than Eurasian Curlew?

Why should it be?

4) Why is there such a clear eye-ring?

Because that's what Slender-billed have. Check out John Harriman's pics from Morrocco and the 1968 French bird.

5) Why are the tertials and tail more closely barred than the Druridge bird?

No photos show the Druridge birds' tail well enough to make such comparison, but I don't see any difference in the tertials.

6) Why is the breast streaking so indistinct?

Individual variation?

7) Why is there such a dark ground colour to the breast?

I would say it has a very pale breast. Just asked 2 other people who also agree!

My only doubt about this bird has always been that it certainly does look big. But even this is apparently okay.

Whatever happened to Michael Frankis, by the way? He'd be incredibly useful at the moment.

 

[marek_walford]

But...I do worry that, based on the photos, the bill is not tapering enough and the tip not fine enough. (I'm not worried about bill colour or the width of the bill base, cf the BB paper and the other literature).

So, those who have seen it - please help me out as I think that this is difficult to decide from photos - how fine is the bill tip? Especially, is there any suggestion of a bulbous tip?

If not - I'm on the 'plane on Sunday night (if it is seen on Sunday!).

Thanks and best regards.

Mike

The two main points that worried me when I saw it and still do (I don't think it's a SBC) is that it had the same jizz as the two Eurasian Curlews and the bill is not slender. I didn't note a bulbous tip but it's well known that this is diffcult to see in the field (and not even that easy on specimens). The bill didn't appear fine at the tip and I've yet to see any photos showing this. This has to be a major problem to identifying the bird as a SBC and I can't see how anybody can explain the lack of a crucial id feature.

 

[Nightranger]

The BB article addresses the possibility of the Druridge bird being an aberrant Curlew and basically says that aberrant birds are aberrant in one feature (i.e. leucistic plumage or a short bill). It argues that the chances of one bird showing several aberrant features (in the case of the Druridge bird and the Minsmere one - small, short-billed and pale) is very, very unlikely. I can believe this which is why I believe the Minsmere bird is more likely to be an obscure race of Eurasian Curlew that we know little about.

Hi Marek,

I can see why CJW thinks we are going round in circles. I was more referring to the Minsmere bird but I made the connection with Druridge bird because some people have pointed out similarities. I don't know how I can say this any clearer, I am not yet convinced in any direction and that seems to be the general consensus of opinion here. I think the best way to think of this is that some people are leaning in a particular direction without having case proved at this time. There are so many varied ideas on this thread that it is impossible to answer everything for any of us. I think the bottomline at this stage is that we do not have a definitive ID for the Minsmere bird and I am perfectly prepared to accept the birds is distinct from the Druridge bird but also that it brings about a fresh look at the latter (if this is what is required). To be honest, I want it to proved as an SBC because this could infer that a population exists somewhere although even this would not be proven. Curlews are not short lifespan bird and this individual could be a remnant with no prospects of breeding.

Ian

 

[Reader]

Hi Marek,

I want it to proved as an SBC because this could infer that a population exists somewhere although even this would not be proven. Curlews are not short lifespan bird and this individual could be a remnant with no prospects of breeding.

Ian

If it were to be proved that is is an SBC (and I am firmly in the doubter camp) that would be a real shame if your final sentence was proved to be correct.

 

[marek_walford]

I was leaning towards SBC until a few days ago when I sat down with the BB article and examined the Minsmere bird in exactly the same way as the article examined the Druridge bird. Each section gives the degree to which that feature is important in id'ing the bird. In doing so I found that (according to my own notes) there were several inconsitencies between the Minsmere bird and what the BB article cites as very important features. I came to the conclusion that the bird cannot be a SBC.

What I find very surprising is the inconsitencies between observations. i.e. to my mind there is no way the bill was in any way fine or slender yet others swear blind it was! I still wonder whether I saw the same bird as others are describing (in the stubble field on 2/10).

 

[Rob Hutchinson]

The two main points that worried me when I saw it and still do (I don't think it's a SBC) is that it had the same jizz as the two Eurasian Curlews and the bill is not slender. I didn't note a bulbous tip but it's well known that this is diffcult to see in the field (and not even that easy on specimens). The bill didn't appear fine at the tip and I've yet to see any photos showing this. This has to be a major problem to identifying the bird as a SBC and I can't see how anybody can explain the lack of a crucial id feature.

These were definitely the negatives for me when watching the bird, intersting to compare photos from the 2 links below however ref. Bill Shape;
http://www.birdnet-cms.de/cms/front_content.php?idcatart=209&lang=1&client=1
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=1008
Comparing the bills of the 2 birds directly I can see little if any difference in structure.
Also interesting similarities in breast streaking and note variation in flank markings although the Hungary birds due show clear white base colouration lacking the brown tranverse barring of the Minsmere bird.

Rob

 

[tom mckinney]

Hi Marek,

Totally agree with your comment about wildly different descriptions. I overheard one guy say that he thought the "rear neck was really dark" whilst his mate told him "no chance its really silvery."

I pity whoever has to assess it, cuz there is going to be some crazy ass descriptions!!!

 

[Allen]

As an innocent bystander but highly interested in this ongoing thread I'd like to maybe state (reiterate) an obvious question on the bill - thin tipped or not.

There seems to be now some better pictures coming out e.g. Roy Harveys on Surfbirds which are sharp and show the bird against a pale background.

I know that pictures don't always reflect the true field image BUT surely these shots must give pretty accurate reflection of whether it has a thin tipped bill or not!!!

 

[ed keeble]

As an innocent bystander but highly interested in this ongoing thread I'd like to maybe state (reiterate) an obvious question on the bill - thin tipped or not.

There seems to be now some better pictures coming out e.g. Roy Harveys on Surfbirds which are sharp and show the bird against a pale background.

I know that pictures don't always reflect the true field image BUT surely these shots must give pretty accurate reflection of whether it has a thin tipped bill or not!!!

Funnily enough, I think there is some dirt at the tip of the lower mandible in the Roy Harvey pics!

 

[Ashley beolens]

Tom, I was there Monday and the people hwo were claiming the birdon the levels, were saying, whilst watching the second (thin billed) bird tha they thought this mornings bird was better!! some people will believe what they want to believe.

I agree whole heartedly that the bill looks quite thick in the photos, but I swaer on my life!! (strong words) that when I SAW the bird it looked quite thin, I was shocked by how thin to be honest, I cannot comment as to why others don't agree or why the photos don't show this but I don't care really!! More to the point does it not seem as thick as the German Birdnet picture??

Can anyone tell me if they have seen a EC with such a sloping forhead? aren't they usually very rounded??

 

[Docmartin]

Just for interest, here's another old SBC specimen. Does anyone want to guess its provenance?

 

[marek_walford]

Just for interest, here's another old SBC specimen. Does anyone want to guess its provenance?

Hastings (allegedly)

 

[HH75]

Hi Martin,
I seem to recall that there was a North American record: would this be that bird?
Harry

 

[marklhawkes]

Hi Marek,

Totally agree with your comment about wildly different descriptions. I overheard one guy say that he thought the "rear neck was really dark" whilst his mate told him "no chance its really silvery."

I pity whoever has to assess it, cuz there is going to be some crazy ass descriptions!!!

I doubt it will even be submitted now. Having been involved in a private email discussion with many of the key people involved in this bird, it appears that all have come to the conclusion that, although they dont' know what it is, it has too many anomolies to be regarded as a SBC.

One thing is for sure - EVERYBODY - regardless of their opinion (which their entitled too) have learnt much about curlew identification. Anyone who steps forward and crows 'i told you so', should be careful incase they ever stumble across a bird that is as tricky as this to confirm (not just claim, but confirm!)

 

[HH75]

Hi Mark,

One thing is for sure - EVERYBODY - regardless of their opinion (which their entitled too) have learnt much about curlew identification. Anyone who steps forward and crows 'i told you so', should be careful incase they ever stumble across a bird that is as tricky as this to confirm (not just claim, but confirm!)

Well said! In my opinion, there is never room for crowing when it comes to bird identification: I was extremely disappointed at comments I received from some birders here who didn't travel for the intriguing Aythya sp at Smerwick Harbour earlier in the autumn, to the effect that they found the whole affair hilarious!
We can all make the occasional mistake even when it comes to relatively 'obvious' birds, and of course there will always be birds such as this one that divide opinion and perhaps even defy positive identification at times. It always repays one to be cautious, and to be gracious in victory or defeat: after all, as you say, the same person could be confronted with something like a vagrant Empidonax sp at some stage....
Harry