Damselflies for ID, Spain (1 Viewer)

[Gavia_immer]

I think this two cuties are teneral damsels and I am a bit lost. Can anybody help with ID?

Both pictures were taken in the same place, Rivas Vaciamadrid, in the southern part of Madrid province, C Spain. The first one was taken in early May and the second at the beginning of September.

Thanks in advance to anybody that can help!! :t:

 

[borin]

1. Is Ischnura a female, I.graellsii

2. I will have a think about, not being from the region makes it harder.

 

[Odonate]

I would have to agree with 1 but only on range as I don't think that it can be ID'd safely from the photo.

2 is a Lestid I think but a very recently emerged one. The choices are probably barbarus, virens and viridis on range and on the pale antehumeral. I would probably tend towards viridis but I can't be sure from the photo. Anyone see anything characteristic??

O

 

[RoyW]

Both Ischnura graellsii, a female on the left, a male on the right.

The 'diamond shaped', bi-coloured pterostigma characteristic of Ischnurais visible on both, although very pale because both are recently emerged. The female is easier to identify because it has better colours (and the mainly pale upperside to the eight abdomen segment is fairly obvious - female graellsii apparently tend to have fairly extensive dark markings on this segment, as seen in the photo).

The male does look like a Lestes, with such narrow pale stripes on the thorax, but the pterostigma is wrong, and no Lestes (at least in the region) has clearly separated post ocular spots. The pattern on the side of the thorax is also good for Ischnura graellsii, and abdomen segment 8 is pale (segment 9 & 10 are also pale, but I believe that this is just because the damselfly is so recently emerged.

Neither seems to show the obvious projection on the pronotum that Ischnura elegans has, but as the two species can apparently hybridise, I would think that it would be difficult to rule out that possibility (although it must be very unlikely ).

 

[Odonate]

I was dubious and a bit confused but hadn't noticed that you could make out the bicoloured pterostima.

O

 

[Gavia_immer]

Both Ischnura graellsii, a female on the left, a male on the right.

The 'diamond shaped', bi-coloured pterostigma characteristic of Ischnurais visible on both, although very pale because both are recently emerged. The female is easier to identify because it has better colours (and the mainly pale upperside to the eight abdomen segment is fairly obvious - female graellsii apparently tend to have fairly extensive dark markings on this segment, as seen in the photo).

The male does look like a Lestes, with such narrow pale stripes on the thorax, but the pterostigma is wrong, and no Lestes (at least in the region) has clearly separated post ocular spots. The pattern on the side of the thorax is also good for Ischnura graellsii, and abdomen segment 8 is pale (segment 9 & 10 are also pale, but I believe that this is just because the damselfly is so recently emerged.

Neither seems to show the obvious projection on the pronotum that Ischnura elegans has, but as the two species can apparently hybridise, I would think that it would be difficult to rule out that possibility (although it must be very unlikely ).

OMG, Roy!! :eek!: That was a real lesson about Ischnura ID!! Thank you soooo much!!! :t:

 

[John Muddeman]

RoyW's suggestion of it being a tentative ID of the female is good.

There are actually plenty of I. elegans in SE Madrid in a series of gravel pits very close to Rivas (with graellsii basically very widespread almost throughout Spain), and I read that females sometimes have no pronounced pronotal protruberance. Also, I'm not sure that what might be a protruberance visible in the pic is or not!

The particularly wide antehumeral stripe looks odd compared to most of the graellsii I see and makes me think it might well actually be an elegans, but I don't think this is a reliable feature at all, but I openly admit to have hardly seen and certainly not studied elegans here.

So I think it's best left unidentified...

Regards

John

 

[RoyW]

The particularly wide antehumeral stripe looks odd compared to most of the graellsii I see and makes me think it might well actually be an elegans, but I don't think this is a reliable feature at all, but I openly admit to have hardly seen and certainly not studied elegans here.

Such wide antehumerals are not typical for elegans either, neither are the extensive black markings on the dorsal side of S8 (which I believe is more typical in graellsii.
Sometimes it's just not possible to be certain from a photo!

 

[John Muddeman]

OK and thanks for the comment/info Roy.