Dawn chorus (1 Viewer)

[nickderry]

Sorry adding that if the dawn chorus is significant as everyone will agree then there is a lack of birdsong during the day(will everyone agree) Reason Males unavailable. How can you argue with that

Dawn chorus significant - Agree
Lack of birdsong during the day (well greatly reduced) - Agree

Reason - males unavailable. Possible, BUT, males don't sing at night when they are available, and studies show that the heightened activity of singing is a response to increasing light levels.

 

[dram7]

Hello Dram7

I'm sorry if my earlier posts came across as too negative. The problem is that I come from a science background, and have an automatic distrust of easy answers and of claims that this (anything) is THE answer, and that anyone who doesn't see it is just wrong. Science works by the generation and testing of theories - those that are the most robust last the longest, while other weaker ones are displaced by those that fit the observations better. Simply coming on to a birding website and telling everyone that you have a very simple answer to a complex question can be seen as quite arrogant, and I'm afraid that this is how you appeared to me. Of course, I don't know anything about you other than your posts here, so my assessment could easily be totally misfounded.

I wonder what reading you have done to test your theory. Are you aware of studies done on captive and wild bird populations that show how the dawn chorus is brought forward by increasing artificial light levels? Your changeover theory will have to account for this if it is to be more widely accepted.

Regards

Mike

Mike I love science and the way it works. Observation comes first then the proof. The world would be a better place if all adopted this approach. I am the biggest sceptic on this earth.SHOW ME THE PROOF is my motto.
I have observed. The proof I will leave to science. Males are unavailable to sing during the day because they are unavailable. I will leave the whys & wherefores to scientists. Is this a true observation in my garden or isnt it?Also you did not mention it in the run up so can I assume you have learned something you did not know?
It appears also that I shouldn't be posting on this website on account of my arrogance. I did not post arrogantly only looking for inspiration for my primary school visit(about which I am quaking) and If the case is I will stick to rspb & Bto websites

 

[dram7]

Dawn chorus significant - Agree
Lack of birdsong during the day (well greatly reduced) - Agree

Reason - males unavailable. Possible, BUT, males don't sing at night when they are available, and studies show that the heightened activity of singing is a response to increasing light levels.

Cant argue with that. Did not expect birds to sing at night really. Surely a response to light levels.I would never deny that.
Males unavailable not only possible but definite(that is what this observation is about)

 

[Apodemus]

Mike I love science and the way it works. Observation comes first then the proof. The world would be a better place if all adopted this approach. I am the biggest sceptic on this earth.SHOW ME THE PROOF is my motto.
I have observed. The proof I will leave to science. Males are unavailable to sing during the day because they are unavailable. I will leave the whys & wherefores to scientists. Is this a true observation in my garden or isnt it?Also you did not mention it in the run up so can I assume you have learned something you did not know?
It appears also that I shouldn't be posting on this website on account of my arrogance. I did not post arrogantly only looking for inspiration for my primary school visit(about which I am quaking) and If the case is I will stick to rspb & Bto websites

Hmm. A few questions there.

Is this a true observation in your garden? I have no idea, I have never knowingly been there!

Can you assume that I have learned something new? Not necessarily, I have not seen any proof that females sit at night and that males sit during the day. If this were the case, I would mostly see female birds during the egg laying season and this doesn't fit my own observations.

Should you be posting on this website? Hell yes!!

And you do right to quake before addressing primary school children! However you think it will go - expect the unexpected. Good luck though.

 

[turkish van]

Dram7, what age group will you be speaking to?

 

[dram7]

Does it really matter? Dantm wrote an interesting post, as have many other people, if you keep insisting everyone agrees with you and ignoring their points, noone will want to discuss it!

Sorry but I am agreeing with them.
On the question of reason no song during day. answer unavailability
No one seems to say whether they did or did not know including you. Can I just dismiss the observation then as irrellevent

 

[dram7]

Dram7, what age group will you be speaking to?

That's the trouble. 5 to 11

 

[Apodemus]

That's the trouble. 5 to 11

All at the same time? That's a massive age range

 

[dantheman]

Thanks Thats encouraging. You did not say though if you yourself knew the males were unavailable during the day because of the shift system

There's lots I don't know Didn't realise that question was aimed at me in the middle of your earlier post.

(I'm thinking I knew that females tend to brood a lot more etc etc, including at night, but no, your account of the timings of the shift changeover, news to me. Nicely observed if true (and why not?) )

But not on the thinking that it's the cause - thinking that the shift system is itself possibly caused by the dawn chorus singing.

 

[Kits]

... I did not post arrogantly only looking for inspiration for my primary school visit(about which I am quaking) and If the case is I will stick to rspb & Bto websites

And I have done my best to give you some help and ideas.

My final bit of advice is drop the constant questioning of each poster as to whether or not they knew that (according to your observations) that males don't sing as much during the day because they are apparently on the nest. People don't take kindly to being badgered.

 

[dram7]

Hmm. A few questions there.

Is this a true observation in your garden? I have no idea, I have never knowingly been there!

Can you assume that I have learned something new? Not necessarily, I have not seen any proof that females sit at night and that males sit during the day. If this were the case, I would mostly see female birds during the egg laying season and this doesn't fit my own observations.

Should you be posting on this website? Hell yes!!

And you do right to quake before addressing primary school children! However you think it will go - expect the unexpected. Good luck though.

Thanks. I have went out of my way to check this over a long period believe me.
Females sit all night & males tight during the day.
Suggest you check yourself . Takes time though.

 

[Apodemus]

And I have done my best to give you some help and ideas.

My final bit of advice is drop the constant questioning of each poster as to whether or not they knew that (according to your observations) that males don't sing as much during the day because they are apparently on the nest. People don't take kindly to being badgered.

Except, of course, for badgers. They quite like it.

 

[dram7]

And I have done my best to give you some help and ideas.

My final bit of advice is drop the constant questioning of each poster as to whether or not they knew that (according to your observations) that males don't sing as much during the day because they are apparently on the nest. People don't take kindly to being badgered.

You are probably right but no shortage of badgering before I posted answer.
Only fighting back.

 

[dram7]

There's lots I don't know Didn't realise that question was aimed at me in the middle of your earlier post.

(I'm thinking I knew that females tend to brood a lot more etc etc, including at night, but no, your account of the timings of the shift changeover, news to me. Nicely observed if true (and why not?) )

But not on the thinking that it's the cause - thinking that the shift system is itself possibly caused by the dawn chorus singing.

Thanks. I never mentioned the cause but the reason.

 

[Kits]

Except, of course, for badgers. They quite like it.

:-O :-O :-O

 

[turkish van]

That's the trouble. 5 to 11

In that case, unless you're speaking to classes separately in which case you can tailor the talks to each one, hate to say it but I think you should drop this in-depth dawn chorus thing. I think you'd be very lucky to get some P4s interested enough in it nevermind the younger ones! Play a recording and describe you're observations but nothing heavy. Bird topic age 5 to 11 is a really difficult one!

 

[dantheman]

That's the trouble. 5 to 11

Maybe if you'd posted this initially as your problem you'd have had a whole shedload of sympathy and ideas. (Or maybe not ... why do all the most controversial/interesting threads get going late at night just when I want to turn in?!!! )

Get the 5 year olds to jump around like Sparrows and Blue Tits, then get half the older ones to be the Sparrowhawks, the other half to be Magpies ... put them all together for half an hour whilst you go away for a cuppa and relax in the staff room ...

Come back, observe the results (a few bloody noses and broken wing feathers, but all still present and correct), write a paper indicating they can all almost co-exist peacefully, retire gracefully with your name venerated forever, sorted. :t:

(Seriously - probably NOT a good idea, KIDS ... :-O )

 

[turkish van]

great idea.

 

[Apodemus]

There are many species, of course, where the female does all the incubating. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong, but I think this is the case with blue tits, great tits and song thrushes, all of whom are active in the dawn chorus. What would your theory have to say about why these birds sing at dawn?

Mike

Edit: The BTO website has a good list of bird facts, including the sex of the parent responsible for incubation. Lots of dawn chorusers are female-only incubators

 

[fugl]

As you’ve said, pigeons (the whole family, not just the British species by the way) have a shift system whereby the female incubates both day & night except for a 6-8 hour-stretch (something like that) in the late morning/early-mid afternoon. This is a well-known biological fact, & not just to pigeon fanciers. The situation is nothing like as clear-cut among many other birds. As Apodemus just pointed out there are many passerine species where the female does all the incubation while in the case of at least some woodpeckers it’s the male who incubates at night not the female.

In view of the above it seems to me that your “males not being available at other times” theory is totally inadequate as an “explanation” of why birds sing more at dawn than at other times.