Dawn chorus (1 Viewer)

[hollis_f]

Mike I love science and the way it works. Observation comes first then the proof. The world would be a better place if all adopted this approach. I am the biggest sceptic on this earth.SHOW ME THE PROOF is my motto.
I have observed. The proof I will leave to science. Males are unavailable to sing during the day because they are unavailable. I will leave the whys & wherefores to scientists. Is this a true observation in my garden or isnt it?

You have made an observation and come up with a theory to explain that observation. If you were a scientist you'd know that the way to test a theory is to attempt to find an observation that doesn't fit with the theory, thus disproving it.

As others have pointed out, the dawn chorus is just as vibrant in early spring - before pairing, mating and breeding has happened. So your one true 'correct' theory fails to explain this observation. There must be some other reasons why birds sing at dawn (and Andrew has given some very sensible-sounding reasons) before they've bred.

If one now applies Occam's razor then one would make the assumption that exactly the same explanations for the pre-breeding dawn chorus can be used to explain the post-breeding dawn chorus. As a scientist this is enough to convince me that, far from the correct answer, your theory is a small contributing factor at best.

 

[dram7]

You have made an observation and come up with a theory to explain that observation. If you were a scientist you'd know that the way to test a theory is to attempt to find an observation that doesn't fit with the theory, thus disproving it.

As others have pointed out, the dawn chorus is just as vibrant in early spring - before pairing, mating and breeding has happened. So your one true 'correct' theory fails to explain this observation. There must be some other reasons why birds sing at dawn (and Andrew has given some very sensible-sounding reasons) before they've bred.

If one now applies Occam's razor then one would make the assumption that exactly the same explanations for the pre-breeding dawn chorus can be used to explain the post-breeding dawn chorus. As a scientist this is enough to convince me that, far from the correct answer, your theory is a small contributing factor at best.

Once again I am shot down for not trying to explain why there is a dawn chorus. This is for scientists like yourself. That was not my question.
For all who have read about my observations ask yourself this. A colleague of yours says"You know I went to work this morning and all the birds were singing. It was beautiful. But when I came home at lunchtime. Silence. You know about birds. How come". Can you all honestly say you would not mention my point as a contributing factor?
In conclusion I will put this question to the primary kids , not in a smug I know everything vein but just as an aside to my talk so that they can take it home to their parents(who knows how good their parents are, they may have been reading these posts) and stimulate further interest in birds. I don't expect my answer to be given but on a subsequent visit I can tell them.
Is it too complicated to tell schoolchildren that the female incubates at night and the males during the day. For songbirds like the blackbird this is true an can be easily seen by observation. The fact that it is not hard and fast and anomalies exist doesn't mean in my book that it shoud not be thrown in as the conversation can then go on to nest building .feeding habits etc.
I am sorry my observations are not scientific as it would appear this is expected on this website. Maybe I should stick to reporting green buzzards with three wings.

 

[Kits]

In conclusion I will put this question to the primary kids , not in a smug I know everything vein but just as an aside to my talk so that they can take it home to their parents(who knows how good their parents are, they may have been reading these posts) and stimulate further interest in birds. I don't expect my answer to be given but on a subsequent visit I can tell them.

I wouldn't wait for a subsequent visit to tell them. The 5 year olds certainly won't have remembered the question. Why leave them dangling? Why not tell them there and then? As a teacher, my advice is to give them the answer.

Is it too complicated to tell schoolchildren that the female incubates at night and the males during the day.

Too simplistic rather than too complicated. Add in the word some and that would make everything okay. :t:

It doesn't seem to me that you are being "shot down" for not being scientific. I think you are being questioned over your decision to say that male birds sing at dawn because they are not available to sing during the day because they are on a nest when there have been many examples given in this thread to disprove that.

BF has a huge range of very knowledgeable posters. If you open up a debate with them (and debates are good!), then you have to accept that your views are going to be challenged.

 

[Pete Mella]

Ignoring the pros and cons of your argument (which others more learned than me on such matters have already blown all the same holes in than I would have), I can't help feeling you will lose the interest immediately of kids so young with this - the 11 year olds will be struggling and the 5 year olds won't even be listening.

Kids so young they may not even know what a blue tit is aren't going to be too attentive on the finer points of songbird singing times... I don't want to be a downer but I think you may be disappointed with how your session goes. Good luck though.

 

[dantheman]

I gnoring the pros and cons of your argument (which others more learned than me on such matters have already blown all the same holes in than I would have), I can't help feeling you will lose the interest immediately of kids so young with this - the 11 year olds will be struggling and the 5 year olds won't even be listening.

Kids so young they may not even know what a blue tit is aren't going to be too attentive on the finer points of songbird singing times... I don't want to be a downer but I think you may be disappointed with how your session goes. Good luck though

I don't know, sometimes kids are more observant than we give them credit for. And they will be being taught far far more boring things in the course of their normal day..

Kids may not have the knowledge of the countryside they had in previous generations, but it only needs one kid to pipe up that they always get woken up in the mornings by the birdies singing loudly outside their window for the subject to take on relevance and interest. Show them pictures (or recordings) of the birds that commonly sing in the chorus, tell them the males sing, and that the females are on the nest more etc.

I think it's fine as long as it's given as part of what's going on, not as the only truth, as we have been saying. Tell them about the other facts brought up as reasons for the dawn chorus at the beginning of the thread too. It's all part of the picture, and to be honest, they probably don't even normally notice birds, so all good (?!).

As the OP said, this topic is only a minor point in his presentation. A lot will depend on his bearing and enthusiasm, the kids themselves, and even the time of day (there's scope for making interesting observations on that topic lol ).

 

[Quercus]

I haven't read all this thread.. so sorry if someone has said this... but shouldn't we be teaching children scientific fact, rather than personal hunches?

This isn't a widely accepted theory... is it?

 

[Jos Stratford]

I haven't read all this thread.. so sorry if someone has said this... but shouldn't we be teaching children scientific fact, rather than personal hunches?

This isn't a widely accepted theory... is it?

Absolutely agree.

Dram7, you have taken it upon yourself to consider only your view as the true fact, despite considerable scepticism to this opinion at best. Several others have also given far more widely held views to account for the observed tendency for singing to be more pronounced at dawn.

As already mentioned, your observations fail to account for the patterns of singing at the beginning of the season, prior to pairing and prior to egg laying. They also completely fail to account for species in which the male fails to take part in incubation, yet still displays the tendency to sing at dawn in preference to the day.


It would seem, the below more or less represent your typical argument:

I have went out of my way to check this over a long period believe me.

Females sit all night & males tight during the day.


Males are unavailable to sing during the day because they are unavailable.

a. Your observations merely reflect your observations for a select range of species over a very specific period of the song period, how can you extrapolate this into your general theory, remembering birds also sing before egg-laying and males of some species do not incubate, hence will be 'available'.

b. You dismiss other factors as the main reason for dawn singing, why? Maybe male birds choose to incubate during the day because it is a lousy time to sing, etc, etc.

Thanks. I never mentioned the cause but the reason.

To be fair, you did not mention the reason, you mentioned your opinion as to the reason, a very different thing.

As you have so clearly tried to 'educate' us, using the approach that you must be right and we ignorant of this, I can only assume you will similarly try to 'educate' the children in your class. So back to Quercus's concerns, I also do not believe you should be in a classroom if this will be your approach. I would be right pissed if my kid came home having been brainwashed by a teacher passing a hunch of his/hers as a fact (on any subject) - offer personal opinions as that, personal opinions.

 

[Mark Lew1s]

Once again I am shot down for not trying to explain why there is a dawn chorus. This is for scientists like yourself. That was not my question.
For all who have read about my observations ask yourself this. A colleague of yours says"You know I went to work this morning and all the birds were singing. It was beautiful. But when I came home at lunchtime. Silence. You know about birds. How come". Can you all honestly say you would not mention my point as a contributing factor?
In conclusion I will put this question to the primary kids , not in a smug I know everything vein but just as an aside to my talk so that they can take it home to their parents(who knows how good their parents are, they may have been reading these posts) and stimulate further interest in birds. I don't expect my answer to be given but on a subsequent visit I can tell them.
Is it too complicated to tell schoolchildren that the female incubates at night and the males during the day. For songbirds like the blackbird this is true an can be easily seen by observation. The fact that it is not hard and fast and anomalies exist doesn't mean in my book that it shoud not be thrown in as the conversation can then go on to nest building .feeding habits etc.
I am sorry my observations are not scientific as it would appear this is expected on this website. Maybe I should stick to reporting green buzzards with three wings.

If I was asked by a colleague why there was a dawn chorus and no birdsong during the day, then yes, I can honestly say that I would not mention your reasons in my answer.

And no, it's not too complicated to tell a bunch of kids that females incubate during the night and males during the day. The problem is, for many species, it simply isn't true.

Don't get me wrong....I'm all for people going in to schools and trying to develop a love of wildlife and and understanding of the importance of conservation....but I'm a little unsure about what you're hoping to achieve with getting the kids to think about the reasons that there is a dawn chorus but no birdsong during the day. They may well go away, discuss it, and even do a little research.....and some of them will probably come up with the right answers....only to be told that they are wrong.

The reasons that birds sing in the morning have been explained clearly...the reasons why they don't continue to sing as much during the day are that singing is extremely energetically demanding, and birds have to feed. They also benefit from keeping a lower profile during the day, when if they were singing non stop in broad daylight they would be an easy target for predators. Male birds will also patrol their territories during the day, driving out predators, other males etc, and will also escort the female on feeding trips to make sure there is no 'competition' from other males.

 

[hollis_f]

For all who have read about my observations ask yourself this. A colleague of yours says"You know I went to work this morning and all the birds were singing. It was beautiful. But when I came home at lunchtime. Silence. You know about birds. How come". Can you all honestly say you would not mention my point as a contributing factor?

No because all my colleagues are intelligent people. If I told them that birds only sing at dawn because they're sitting on eggs during the day, then it'd take them around 0.00001 seconds to say 'But they don't sing in the daytime even when there aren't any eggs." Then they'd all think I was really stupid and never listen to anything I ever said again, ever. So I'd have to move someplace where nobody knew me, or my friends, and I'd have to change my name - otherwise my friends would post messages on Facebook saying how stupid I was.

 

[s. james]

No because all my colleagues are intelligent people. If I told them that birds only sing at dawn because they're sitting on eggs during the day, then it'd take them around 0.00001 seconds to say 'But they don't sing in the daytime even when there aren't any eggs." Then they'd all think I was really stupid and never listen to anything I ever said again, ever. So I'd have to move someplace where nobody knew me, or my friends, and I'd have to change my name - otherwise my friends would post messages on Facebook saying how stupid I was.

:-O

I've a feeling dram might be on the wind-up tbh. However this thread may confirm my observations that teachers (in general) don't have a clue

 

[Kits]

He's not a teacher. He is going into give a talk to primary kids.

I am a teacher as is TV; both of us have tried to give him some advice and help, but to no avail.

Hey ho!

 

[s. james]

He's not a teacher.

Ah! Maybe it's me that doesn't have a clue then - should learn to pay more attetion to what I read.

Edit: ... and write!

 

[halftwo]

If you don,t know you haven,t been observant enough

Hi Dram7,

Above is the last line of your first post.

Answer this question for me would you? The dawn chorus begins in spring before most birds begin to nest. Do your observations show how, as the season progresses, the timing of song birds' songs changes because they are incubating?

I've been observing birds for 40+ years and would say your theory explains only a small proportion of the reasons for a dawn chorus, and answers given by the rest of us here help to explain most of the remainder, though still not all.

I hadn't observed eg. Blackbirds' incubation timings very much because disturbing birds at their nests is a no-no. I hope you will point this out to the children you might be talking to.

We are a questioning lot here on BF (but, I suspect, no more than any interested group would be.) I hope you won't feel hard done by therefore and wish you well with the talk. (I'm not a teacher so can't give advice on that!)

 

[Sancho]

I´d promised myself not to get involved with this thread, but I hardly ever keep my promises to myself, so here goes. I am a teacher, as some others on here are. It´s not unwise to listen to teachers if you want to know how to elicit kids´enthusiasm. One way not to do it is to give them a very hard question, that may have multiple answers, and then tell them that you have "discovered" the principal answer. No criticism implied here, just my professional opninion.

A far better way to get them enthusiastic about birds is to take them on a nature walk, bring a few pairs of small binoculars and perhaps a scope, ask them to point out or note down the birds they see, and ask them to name the ones they know. If you want to interest them in birdsong, ask them what sounds the birds make, get them to imitate them for fun, and maybe bring in some recordings to use in class later, and see if they can match the sounds they hear to the birds they´ve seen, or ones they know.

And as regards the Dawn Chorus, you can´t take them on a field trip to hear it because of it´s timing, but ask them to open their windows at home early in the morning next Spring and listen to it. Far more important that they appreciate it, rather than explain it. Because let´s face it, none of us really know precisely why it happens.

No offence intended, Dram7. I wish you the best with your talk.

 

[Monahawk]

I´d promised myself not to get involved with this thread, but I hardly ever keep my promises to myself, so here goes. I am a teacher, as some others on here are. It´s not unwise to listen to teachers if you want to know how to elicit kids´enthusiasm. One way not to do it is to give them a very hard question, that may have multiple answers, and then tell them that you have "discovered" the principal answer. No criticism implied here, just my professional opninion.

A far better way to get them enthusiastic about birds is to take them on a nature walk, bring a few pairs of small binoculars and perhaps a scope, ask them to point out or note down the birds they see, and ask them to name the ones they know. If you want to interest them in birdsong, ask them what sounds the birds make, get them to imitate them for fun, and maybe bring in some recordings to use in class later, and see if they can match the sounds they hear to the birds they´ve seen, or ones they know.

And as regards the Dawn Chorus, you can´t take them on a field trip to hear it because of it´s timing, but ask them to open their windows at home early in the morning next Spring and listen to it. Far more important that they appreciate it, rather than explain it. Because let´s face it, none of us really know precisely why it happens.

No offence intended, Dram7. I wish you the best with your talk.

Sancho and co. 1 Dram7 0 :-C. Sorry mate but this aint the way to go with kids. Good luck.

 

[Quercus]

Sancho and co. 1 Dram7 0 :-C. Sorry mate but this aint the way to go with kids. Good luck.

Of course Sancho's way is far better than telling children rubbish!

 

[dram7]

dawn chorus

Thanks to all for their contributions.I may not even mention it in my talk now. It wasn't a big topic either only a means of opening up other subjects.
I concede that my statement was too sweeping I assumptive(Is that a word?I am not a teacher). The teacher will be present and my enthusiasm for the environment and wildlife will produce results I am sure.That doesn't mean I am confident but if more did this then the next generation would see the errors of previous generation's ways.
So: Whilst I will try not to choke on my humble pie. I amend my findings thus.
The predominant "song" birds in MY area i.e which noises are predominant in the dawn (and dusk which is just as intense but not so noticeable due to calmer conditions at dawn) choruses, are blackbird. song thrush, missel thrush, chaffinch and wood pigeon. (Tits wren skylark & in summer willow warbler also contribute but I have not hard evidence for them.)
These species without exception in MY area have the female sitting at night and the male during the day. Tested over a long period. These species in MY area have the males singing at dawn & dusk and not normally during the day(The observed exception is after the brood has flown)
There may be a correlation therefore between the two probably in the course of evolutionary history which has led to preference for dawn & dusk singing.(incidentally I observe that these species in MY area start singing in spring after they have paired and in the process of building.I can speculate that the singing in these species MAY be territorial & to reassure the female that all is well. Also I observe my blackbirds -4 pair-sing relatively far from the nest-50-100m- and don't seem to contest territory)
Thats it and thanks again. you have had your pound of flesh.
BUT I am about to post a new suject on observation of gulls which are an enigma to me. Please can you give opinion on this one.

 

[Apodemus]

Thanks to all for their contributions.I may not even mention it in my talk now. It wasn't a big topic either only a means of opening up other subjects.
I concede that my statement was too sweeping I assumptive(Is that a word?I am not a teacher). The teacher will be present and my enthusiasm for the environment and wildlife will produce results I am sure.That doesn't mean I am confident but if more did this then the next generation would see the errors of previous generation's ways.
So: Whilst I will try not to choke on my humble pie. I amend my findings thus.
The predominant "song" birds in MY area i.e which noises are predominant in the dawn (and dusk which is just as intense but not so noticeable due to calmer conditions at dawn) choruses, are blackbird. song thrush, missel thrush, chaffinch and wood pigeon. (Tits wren skylark & in summer willow warbler also contribute but I have not hard evidence for them.)
These species without exception in MY area have the female sitting at night and the male during the day. Tested over a long period. These species in MY area have the males singing at dawn & dusk and not normally during the day(The observed exception is after the brood has flown)
There may be a correlation therefore between the two probably in the course of evolutionary history which has led to preference for dawn & dusk singing.(incidentally I observe that these species in MY area start singing in spring after they have paired and in the process of building.I can speculate that the singing in these species MAY be territorial & to reassure the female that all is well. Also I observe my blackbirds -4 pair-sing relatively far from the nest-50-100m- and don't seem to contest territory)
Thats it and thanks again. you have had your pound of flesh.
BUT I am about to post a new suject on observation of gulls which are an enigma to me. Please can you give opinion on this one.

Gulls! Primary children are easy by comparison. Good luck with the talk and I hope you do enthuse them. I'm sure they'll enjoy it.

Mike

 

[Sancho]

......my enthusiasm for the environment and wildlife will produce results I am sure.That doesn't mean I am confident...

Hey, Dram7, your enthusiasm will shine. And don´t worry about confidence, there´s nothing kids like better than a new face in the class to talk to them about something "off the syllabus", as it were. It´ll be great for them, and you´ll all enjoy it, which is the main thing. Don´t take our obsessive geekiness here too seriously.....navel-gazing over minutiae is our disease (just have a look at the optics threads!). Best of luck with the talk, please let us know how it goes!:t:

P.S. - Fair play to you for giving your time to go into a school to talk to the kids. Not a lot of folk would do that.

 

[LabradorDuck]

There may be a correlation therefore between the two probably in the course of evolutionary history which has led to preference for dawn & dusk singing.

I think it's still backwards. It seems far more likely that the preferance for singing at dawn, which has a number of explanations already stated in this thread, has led to the current incubation schedule where it exists. The other explanations apply equally to birds who do not use this incubation schedule but also sing at dawn and dusk, so there is no need to add an additional one that only applies to those birds that do, especially when that cause (incubation schedule) works just as well as an effect.

Anyway, I wish you well, and I hope that your program gets some young people interested in birds.