Death Of The Alpha? (1 Viewer)

[ceasar]

Yes, the same as you did here........



In 15 years of having hunters in camp I've never seen the first EDG, fewer Leica's every year, and more Swaros than anything. The only way I ever try a Noctivid is if someone gives me one.

Glad you noticed that.

The point is that very few people can document the sales of alpha binoculars and those people are probably sworn to corporate secrecy. Here on Bird Forum discussion of binocular sales is pure speculation. Especially here is it pure speculation!

There are far more binoculars out there being used for hunting and birding and casual recreation around the world than anyone can imagine and by far those in the lowest numbers are the ones we call "Alphas."

The few companies who make these so called "Alphas" are huge corporations highly experienced in the optical business who can afford to make binoculars of the highest quality. Then they market them to the public as advertising to keep their corporate name before the public and also as a demonstration of their pride in the name of their corporation.

They can afford to discount them if they want to do so for whatever reason. And they can also afford not to discount them if they choose.

 

[[email protected]]

In 10 years of birding, I´ve seen a lot of Nikon, Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski and many others, but never a single Tract or Maven or even Zen Ray.



If Tract wants to put Leica and the like to death, an idea to start with would be to sell binoculars also outside the US and Canada

"If Tract wants to put Leica and the like to death, an idea to start with would be to sell binoculars also outside the US and Canada."

I agree I wonder why they don't? Anybody from Tract care to answer?

 

[Chosun Juan]

I may be repeating myself, but IMHO without the innovation at the top end I don`t think you`d have the likes of Maven offering something more affordable with high performance, just look how many companies have copied the original EL`s open bridge design, how many have introduced a FF lens element, we see this all the time from Japan and China with car design, they copy, they don`t innovate, the Kamakura design the Tract uses is found everywhere, when will we see a ground breaking innovation from them ?

John,

Pretty much the whole 2nd tier uses the same basic Kamakura produced design. Whether it was designed in-house and then shopped around, or commissioned from one of the Alpha makers, and then available to license out later is not clear - maybe one of our insiders can elaborate. If memory serves, didn't the Vortex Razor HD predate the Zeiss Conquest HD?

The Chinese certainly are amongst the greatest copiers in the world (#ripoffmuch?) , with lax IP regulation and muddy enforcement, not at all helped by the feigned offence taking and bully boy sabre rattling (#dronesnatchers! , #southseamilitaryinvasion).

Innovation from the Japanese is not entirely absent - ergo Nissan GTR, Acura NSX 2017, though the hit and miss nature of this quirky culture is something to behold. It was probably something as simple as the Japanese 206Kw power ceiling that hamstrung their automotive industry on a world stage, and yet conversely delivered us precisely to the point in time of this 2nd gen NSX. As innovative a mechanical driveline as it is, unfortunately the new NSX was styled in the US, so it's no stylish Euro-looker. A few really cool Batmobiles, Customs, and Hot Rods notwithstanding, the Americans (no offense boys would have difficulty styling a b*m hole! :eek!:

I'd like to see the Alpha makers move the game on and come up with lightweight CFRP bodied, HT and Ultra-FL glass sharp to the edge 70° AFov, Perger (or PorroII) prismed bins in innovative formats (#bags9x50! , with NV-style quasi 3-D enhancement, and hitherto unheard of levels of CA and glare control .... who's going to be the first to crack 96, 97% tabletop flat light transmission curves? ---- surely not too much to ask for your $2000 is it? :cat:


Chosun :gh:

 

[NDhunter]

So finally it's in the open. A parasite with a big mouth who is only looking for the free ride.

Can we please ban this guy for life or ignore him?

Jan

Jan:

I agree with you, I am putting him on ignore again.

Easy to do in your user control panel, Misc., ignore list.

This is not about binoculars with this clown, just him.
Sorry I took the bait, he is just a troll.

Jerry

 

[[email protected]]

John,

Pretty much the whole 2nd tier uses the same basic Kamakura produced design. Whether it was designed in-house and then shopped around, or commissioned from one of the Alpha makers, and then available to license out later is not clear - maybe one of our insiders can elaborate. If memory serves, didn't the Vortex Razor HD predate the Zeiss Conquest HD?

The Chinese certainly are amongst the greatest copiers in the world (#ripoffmuch?) , with lax IP regulation and muddy enforcement, not at all helped by the feigned offence taking and bully boy sabre rattling (#dronesnatchers! , #southseamilitaryinvasion).

Innovation from the Japanese is not entirely absent - ergo Nissan GTR, Acura NSX 2017, though the hit and miss nature of this quirky culture is something to behold. It was probably something as simple as the Japanese 206Kw power ceiling that hamstrung their automotive industry on a world stage, and yet conversely delivered us precisely to the point in time of this 2nd gen NSX. As innovative a mechanical driveline as it is, unfortunately the new NSX was styled in the US, so it's no stylish Euro-looker. A few really cool Batmobiles, Customs, and Hot Rods notwithstanding, the Americans (no offense boys would have difficulty styling a b*m hole! :eek!:

I'd like to see the Alpha makers move the game on and come up with lightweight CFRP bodied, HT and Ultra-FL glass sharp to the edge 70° AFov, Perger (or PorroII) prismed bins in innovative formats (#bags9x50! , with NV-style quasi 3-D enhancement, and hitherto unheard of levels of CA and glare control .... who's going to be the first to crack 96, 97% tabletop flat light transmission curves? ---- surely not too much to ask for your $2000 is it? :cat:


Chosun :gh:

"Pretty much the whole 2nd tier uses the same basic Kamakura produced design."

It may be a similar design but there must a LOT of tweaking between the different manufacturers of Kamakura produced binoculars. I see considerable differences between the Tract Toric, the Maven's and the Zeiss Conquest HD in optical performance. Kamakura must be a pretty high quality manufacturer or Zeiss would not let them build their Conquest HD.

 

[[email protected]]

Glad you noticed that.

The point is that very few people can document the sales of alpha binoculars and those people are probably sworn to corporate secrecy. Here on Bird Forum discussion of binocular sales is pure speculation. Especially here is it pure speculation!

There are far more binoculars out there being used for hunting and birding and casual recreation around the world than anyone can imagine and by far those in the lowest numbers are the ones we call "Alphas."

The few companies who make these so called "Alphas" are huge corporations highly experienced in the optical business who can afford to make binoculars of the highest quality. Then they market them to the public as advertising to keep their corporate name before the public and also as a demonstration of their pride in the name of their corporation.

They can afford to discount them if they want to do so for whatever reason. And they can also afford not to discount them if they choose.

Your correct but why would Zeiss discount the grey SF so MUCH when they introduced the very slightly modified black SF?

 

[[email protected]]

In 10 years of birding, I´ve seen a lot of Nikon, Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski and many others, but never a single Tract or Maven or even Zen Ray.



If Tract wants to put Leica and the like to death, an idea to start with would be to sell binoculars also outside the US and Canada

You probably would not see a Tract, Maven or Zen Ray in Sweden because they are not highly marketed their. I question why they don't sell worldwide myself though.

 

[Rathaus]

Nothing new going on here.

We've always had various binoculars such as the Nikon Ell (which are even cheaper than the hideously named Tract torics) which have had us scratching our collective heads wondering if alpha bins offer much if any more. I can add various other bins such as swift audubons and some bushnels to that list...and I'm sure there are heaps more.

I haven't read the entire thread thus far so this has likely been covered.

 

[[email protected]]

Nothing new going on here.

We've always had various binoculars such as the Nikon Ell (which are even cheaper than the hideously named Tract torics) which have had us scratching our collective heads wondering if alpha bins offer much if any more. I can add various other bins such as swift audubons and some bushnels to that list...and I'm sure there are heaps more.

I haven't read the entire thread thus far so this has likely been covered.

The difference is I REALLY believe there is something new here. These new direct marketed binoculars like the Maven and Tract are game changers. They are the first roof prism binoculars that can actually challenge the alpha binoculars in my opinion. They are going to change the binocular market.

 

[Chosun Juan]

The difference is I REALLY believe there is something new here. These new direct marketed binoculars like the Maven and Tract are game changers. They are the first roof prism binoculars that can actually challenge the alpha binoculars in my opinion. They are going to change the binocular market.

Dennis, the Maven B2 9x45 is one thing - it ticks a lot of boxes, except focus direction (for me) , and weight, CA would be a question mark for me too. So, I can understand that one, particularly if you are in the minority and your eyes have a lot of barrel distortion and you are prone to rolling ball phenomena, and you appreciate a smoother focuser (b*mmer about that direction though!

I have only ever used the Swaro focusers comfortably above freezing point (Celsius at that) , and none of them felt as good as Zeiss or high end Nikon focusers at those temps - at best they don't exactly wow, and at worst they feel coarse or even gritty. I have checked with the global powers that be though, and it is a very deliberate decision so that they perform consistently in lower temperatures. The only fair test is to compare the feeling of the Swaros vs whatever at those freezing temps if you are crackers enough to want to be out birding then.

However, the Tract, is basically some form (lesser?) of Razor HD, or Conquest HD. It ain't no Alpha - it can't be. That Fov is 2nd rate in the 8x.

You said, "It may be a similar design but there must a LOT of tweaking between the different manufacturers of Kamakura produced binoculars. I see considerable differences between the Tract Toric, ..... and the Zeiss Conquest HD in optical performance".

A LOT? really? how on earth so? That's not logically possible, and it's even less possible that the cards would fall in favour of Tract. Zeiss would sell a hell of a lot more 8x Conquest HD's worldwide than the 8x Tract Toric. Therefore Zeiss would be on much bigger volume discounts, and would strong arm more stringent quality level agreements.

When the prism assemblies are made, lenses ground, and coatings applied, you can bet that all the 'A' grade stuff, the highest number of layers, and most flawless coatings, the lowest inclusion glass, etc probably gets funnelled into Zeiss production batches. I wonder how much of the Tract is actually made in Japan, and how much is outsourced to their Chinese Subsidiary .....

At your behest, I have taken the 8x43 ED3, and reduced the wide 426ft Fov way down to the 377ft of the Tract. :eek!: Holy Smokes !! :smoke: You are Right !!! I now have a bin that not only has some of the best CA handling and Brightness around, but it is now sharp to the edge with way more 3D effect than the Swaros. It is totally Alpha class. Better even. All for $400 !

Pity about that straw-like Fov though :scribe:

Just call the 8x Tract for what it is, decent mid tier type performance for $650. It may suit some people sufficiently that they can overlook the narrow Fov, and not feel the need to travel further down the Alpha route. Replacement it ain't though. :cat:

I just checked on ebay - no Tracts for sale ........ Yet .....

Those $1500 8x42 SF 444ft Fov Zeiss have got to be looking mighty tempting to you by now ........ :brains:


Chosun :gh:

 

[[email protected]]

Dennis, the Maven B2 9x45 is one thing - it ticks a lot of boxes, except focus direction (for me) , and weight, CA would be a question mark for me too. So, I can understand that one, particularly if you are in the minority and your eyes have a lot of barrel distortion and you are prone to rolling ball phenomena, and you appreciate a smoother focuser (b*mmer about that direction though!

I have only ever used the Swaro focusers comfortably above freezing point (Celsius at that) , and none of them felt as good as Zeiss or high end Nikon focusers at those temps - at best they don't exactly wow, and at worst they feel coarse or even gritty. I have checked with the global powers that be though, and it is a very deliberate decision so that they perform consistently in lower temperatures. The only fair test is to compare the feeling of the Swaros vs whatever at those freezing temps if you are crackers enough to want to be out birding then.

However, the Tract, is basically some form (lesser?) of Razor HD, or Conquest HD. It ain't no Alpha - it can't be. That Fov is 2nd rate in the 8x.

You said, "It may be a similar design but there must a LOT of tweaking between the different manufacturers of Kamakura produced binoculars. I see considerable differences between the Tract Toric, ..... and the Zeiss Conquest HD in optical performance".

A LOT? really? how on earth so? That's not logically possible, and it's even less possible that the cards would fall in favour of Tract. Zeiss would sell a hell of a lot more 8x Conquest HD's worldwide than the 8x Tract Toric. Therefore Zeiss would be on much bigger volume discounts, and would strong arm more stringent quality level agreements.

When the prism assemblies are made, lenses ground, and coatings applied, you can bet that all the 'A' grade stuff, the highest number of layers, and most flawless coatings, the lowest inclusion glass, etc probably gets funnelled into Zeiss production batches. I wonder how much of the Tract is actually made in Japan, and how much is outsourced to their Chinese Subsidiary .....

At your behest, I have taken the 8x43 ED3, and reduced the wide 426ft Fov way down to the 377ft of the Tract. :eek!: Holy Smokes !! :smoke: You are Right !!! I now have a bin that not only has some of the best CA handling and Brightness around, but it is now sharp to the edge with way more 3D effect than the Swaros. It is totally Alpha class. Better even. All for $400 !

Pity about that straw-like Fov though :scribe:

Just call the 8x Tract for what it is, decent mid tier type performance for $650. It may suit some people sufficiently that they can overlook the narrow Fov, and not feel the need to travel further down the Alpha route. Replacement it ain't though. :cat:

I just checked on ebay - no Tracts for sale ........ Yet .....

Those $1500 8x42 SF 444ft Fov Zeiss have got to be looking mighty tempting to you by now ........ :brains:


Chosun :gh:

No ,the 8x42 SF doesn't tempt me anymore. I compared the Tract Toric 8x42 to the Zeiss Conquest 8x42 HD and the Tract is definitely better optically so there must some differences somewhere and many have said the Zeiss Conquest HD is very near alpha so where does that put the Tract? Jgraider also compared the Toric to many binoculars over in Africa and he said that the Toric was definitely better than the Zeiss Conquest HD and as good as any binocular there so if you think I am blowing smoke ask him. It isn't no surprise that the Tract Toric 10x42 was awarded Outdoor Life's "Great Buy" award and was very close to the top tier Leica Ultravids in overall number rankings. Many of the testers could not believe how inexpensive it was. Many of the reviewers on the Tract also comment on how they think it is just as good as their Swarovski or other alpha if you read them. It isn't surprising that all the Tract Torics 10x42 are sold out until March. The Toric is more than decent mid-tier performance and I think you would agree if you ever get your hands on one. Your judging them without trying them. Try the 10x42 Tract Toric if you think the 8x42 will have too small a FOV for you. TRY ONE and you will be thanking me for recommending them.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/2016-binocular-test-we-test-17-full-and-mid-size-binos#page-12

 

[Rathaus]

The difference is I REALLY believe there is something new here. These new direct marketed binoculars like the Maven and Tract are game changers. They are the first roof prism binoculars that can actually challenge the alpha binoculars in my opinion. They are going to change the binocular market.

Hmm...when I see David Attenborough gazing at bonobos through a Tract binocular I'll be convinced :t:


Have you tried the Tekoa line?

 

[Chosun Juan]

No ,the 8x42 SF doesn't tempt me anymore. I compared the Tract Toric 8x42 to the Zeiss Conquest 8x42 HD and the Tract is definitely better optically so there must some differences somewhere and many have said the Zeiss Conquest HD is very near alpha so where does that put the Tract? Gjraider also compared the Toric to many binoculars over in Africa and he said that the Toric was definitely better than the Zeiss Conquest HD and as good as any binocular there so if you think I am blowing smoke ask him. It isn't no surprise that the Tract Toric 10x42 was awarded Outdoor Life's "Great Buy" award and was very close to the top tier Leica Ultravids in overall number rankings. Many of the testers could not believe how inexpensive it was. Many of the reviewers on the Tract also comment on how they think it is just as good as their Swarovski or other alpha if you read them. It isn't surprising that all the Tract Torics 10x42 are sold out until March. The Toric is more than decent mid-tier performance and I think you would agree if you ever get your hands on one. Your judging them without trying them. Try the 10x42 Tract Toric if you think the 8x42 will have too small a FOV for you. TRY ONE and you will be thanking me for recommending them.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/2016-binocular-test-we-test-17-full-and-mid-size-binos#page-12

Dennis, the 10x42 Tract certainly is closer to the mark AFov wise. I would like to see one, however, a couple of folk on the Tract thread who have seen both 8x and 10x say that the 10x is not as impressive. It's a lot harder to make a 10x than an 8x - things go to p** more rapidly at sub-Alpha level. I won't be in the market for a 10x42 for a few decades yet, preferring a bigger EP which I utilize even in daylight at this stage.

That Outdoor Life test was a bit amateurish - there was too many different formats and magnifications to give meaningful results - I guess HunTers aren't as discerning as birders. One guy said he thought the Tract cost a few hundred dollars more - that would still put it at the performance level of under a grand = mid tier. Also the range of quality bins in that test was limited, with the Leica Trinovid being the highest level there - not the Ultravid.

I've always been underwhelmed by the Conquest HD - I wouldn't even swap my Zen for one. The first time I ever looked through one was as the same time I ever looked through a HT for the first time. I couldn't put the Conquest down quickly enough.

You like it (for now) , which is fine, but you should A/B it against the Zeiss 8x42 SF while you still have the chance to get one of the closeout Grey models for ~$1500 - I'm sure the SF would smoke the Toric side by side in 8x. Everybody already knows the end of the story


Chosun :gh:

 

[Malloot]

Not sure why Vortex is even mentioned in Alpha glass binoculars or any other Alpha discussion. All my inquiries to them have gone unanswered over the years. Horrible customer service in my experience. Of course the Vortex dealers that patrol this forum will be busy sending messages trying to defend them as they have in the past but I will chose to ignore them, you know pay with the same coin that Vortex is using. Customer service is the difference between many other brands and Alpha brands.

And no, Alpha brands is nowhere near dead. Ill keep and use my Zeiss over any newcomer until the end of time.

Good point.

Being an Alpha brand is more than offering the best optics. It is also about providing the best service before and after someone bought a product.

Also I'm with the use of Alpha's I'm confident all the effort is been done to provide me a reliable product.

In the Netherlands there was certain Kamakura OEM brand that got really nice reviews. Until it was getting hot and prisms were getting loose, body armor widened, etc. etc.

Do you want to ruin your nature trip with such kind of tools?
I certainly don't. Do you want to spend thousands on a birding holiday or safari and discover a bin-breakdown on day two?

 

[Canip]

Having followed this entire thread now for a while, I am puzzled that no one so far seems to have considered that Dennis (denco) has probably just been making points and bashing Alphas and praising Mavens and Tracts to keep the discussion going, and only for that purpose. At least, I hope this is the case ....

 

[Torview]

As long as I`v been visiting these pages whenever Dennis starts a thread pronouncing this or that binocular as the finest choice available, those binoculars don`t have long left in his stable, he has a good eye, has owned pretty much everything, but is fickle and blows hot and cold, very hard to take a long view about his judgement as that can change as fast as the weather on Dartmoor, and that`s renowned.

 

[SuperDuty]

Who's closing out the 8X42 SF at $1500 ?

You like it (for now) , which is fine, but you should A/B it against the Zeiss 8x42 SF while you still have the chance to get one of the closeout Grey models for ~$1500 - I'm sure the SF would smoke the Toric side by side in 8x. Everybody already knows the end of the story
Chosun :gh:

 

[Chosun Juan]

Who's closing out the 8X42 SF at $1500 ?

SD, when I checked Chuck's (almost new) 4 sale earlier today it was still available .... I haven't religiously followed all the deals you US folk seem to be privy to, but I believe there are some new ones still available for $16-1700 (Sport Optic? from memory), ..... haven't delved into manufacture date and serial n's though (which as you have reminded us is quite important - since the early ones were the 'Beta test' models released to the public) :eek!:

Anysways it's a fair whack off 2.5G+ :t:

I'm out of this thread though - said all that needs to be said and I don't want to inflate the post count anymore. Like a broken thong - flip-flop .... flip. Too many OP contradictions in these claims, too much cherry picked support, too much form on the board, and too many temptations floating about ..... we all know how it's going to end .... uggly !

Sometimes the spin runs so deep that even the Self is deceived .... for a while ...... I've contacted my bookie - Randolph - and placed the usual wager ...... *teehee*


Chosun :gh:

 

[jgraider]

The biggest problems with CJ's posts (and most everyone else on this thread actually) is that, having never seen these "near alphas", he's just guessing. Guesses/opinions are no substitute for experience.

 

[Pileatus]

The biggest problems with CJ's posts (and most everyone else on this thread actually) is that, having never seen these "near alphas", he's just guessing. Guesses/opinions are no substitute for experience.

Amen. :t::t: